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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

First post First post First post
Author
scimichar
Deep Hole Explorers of New Eden
#121 - 2014-01-17 15:41:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.


Since they are now like Tracking Computers, when are you going to make Tracking Disruptors affect drones?
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#122 - 2014-01-17 15:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
good job making drone scope chips worthless again.

also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.

TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.

That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.

I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.

Give us drone range and damage implants in exchange?


scimichar wrote:

Since they are now like Tracking Computers, when are you going to make Tracking Disruptors affect drones?


They already do... if you target the drone.


ALSO, this:
Tauranon wrote:
Rattlesnake, Gila, Navy Dominix ?

ie I see a whole lot of balancing of modules around the two overpowered gallente droneboats.

This change hurts these boats more than the ishtar and domi, despite the ishtar and domi arguably being the impetus for the change.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#123 - 2014-01-17 17:27:49 UTC
Batelle wrote:
good job making drone scope chips worthless again.

also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.

TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.

That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.

I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.


With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank.
I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast.

And I do a fair bit of low sec exploration. Domi's are NOT a ship for that, and have more than my share of scares in Aridia in an exploration Ishtar. No thanks for those anymore. So the Stratios and Proteus are my defacto ships for exploration, and they just got killed with these Omni changes.
Lidia Caderu
Zero To High
Worst Alliance Ever
#124 - 2014-01-17 18:09:55 UTC
Easier to quit flying drone ships than messing with stuff...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#125 - 2014-01-17 18:14:43 UTC
When can we expect the end of drone assist? Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#126 - 2014-01-17 18:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Batelle wrote:
good job making drone scope chips worthless again.

also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.

TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.

That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.

I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.


With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank.
I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast.

And I do a fair bit of low sec exploration. Domi's are NOT a ship for that, and have more than my share of scares in Aridia in an exploration Ishtar. No thanks for those anymore. So the Stratios and Proteus are my defacto ships for exploration, and they just got killed with these Omni changes.

With 79km gardes and a warp-in, you can get by with literally no tank. Ishtar permaruns a mar and AB with 1 cap recharger. at 70km warpin nothing hits you, doesn't matter if its a forsaken hub, sactum, or the 12 ship waves from a haven. If you wait long enough grand admirals will start to plink you, but even then i can tank quite a bit of them before i actually need to hit the ab and start orbiting. If you primary the long range BS, you won't even get your shields taken down before stuff dies. In other words, it would work against any faction. It works so well that even if my gardes get their ranged nerfed slightly, I don't think I'll need to adjust my fit at all. And if it does get too difficult, i can always use longer ranged drones. As for missions, I can fit a plenty-large tank on while still rocking 2 DDAs and a t2 sentry rig. MWD to range, kill stuff with 723 dps (or 786 with 3 ddas and a rig). I can even dual prop it if i want. Or add a 1600 RT no problemo. In actual deadpsace complexes, its a bigger issue, but I always have wardens in my back pocket.

I agree sentry stratios/proteus are hurt by this, but if they were okay before then this certainly hasn't 'killed' them. Cap use could be an issue on the gila or stratios. You just won't be getting 50-60km gardes so easily anymore. Curators, bouncers, and wardens aren't nearly affected as much by this (drones whose lower dps is made up by longer range and hitting on weakest resist). The scope rig nerf sucks, at least for the geddon/phoon/Ndomi/domi/Rsnake. I don't think scope chips are common on cruisers, but I might be mistaken. In particular, my rattlesnake is very sad about this development.

Tracking loss from omnis seems mostly irrelevant for PVE purposes, except as a minor inconvenience.

Again, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. This change is one i find fairly easy to swallow.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

FaulEnza N00bist
Dosis Facit Venenum
#127 - 2014-01-17 19:51:33 UTC
ZheoTheThird wrote:
Hey, Sentries are the most used weapon system in the game for both PvE and PvP of every scale, let's buff them!

Thanks for making afktars and domi blobs even stronger than they are, Sentries really needed a buff, seeing as how they were severely underused in the current meta. This is starting to feel like BoB, how come balance and game design seem so favored towards one of the largest powerblocs in the game, the name of which shall not be mentioned?


In PvE, realy?!, hard to believe. My subjective experience in PvE over almost 4 years says NO.
Pre Drone-Aggro-Nerf there were, let me guess, around 20% of my contact who uses drones. The majority used and loved their non-destroyable weapon systems.
After the Drone-Aggro-Nerf the number of Drone users was getting smaller, it sucks even more (btw i use drones all time because i haven't any other weapon skills or time and will to skill them).

To the changes as self: why not if they are REAL balanced in a long way of testing.... oh, wait... short-circuit action less then 2 weeks before release.Roll ...again and again hasty action.... you will never learn it, shame on you CCP

That scripts, well good question. There are blueprints to build them and guys who make ISK with them. And CCP get no clue to compensate all these blueprint owner.
Idea: you still need the scripts to produce e.g. OMNIs, TCs and so on, but their functionality will be inside the items where you can switch the modes.

---
You will mind it, thats not my native language. Deal with it (...harsh and dark and so on...).
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#128 - 2014-01-17 23:56:15 UTC
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#129 - 2014-01-18 02:30:46 UTC
I'm praying for the best but expecting the worst due to CCP's track record of drone nerfs. I used to fly a Dominix for missions but except for frigate heavy ones I rarely undock it now due to drone aggro issues. Most of my PVP ships use guns for primary DPS so it won't affect me on that side.
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#130 - 2014-01-18 03:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Meyr
I find it rather remarkable that, while it's generally agreed that Drone Mechanics have, for years, been in dire need of some love from the Dev team (let's be honest - Drone Mechanics should have been addressed prior to balancing the hulls, as, once it finally occurs, it will necessitate re-working of several ships of various classes, both Tech 1 & Tech 2, and possibly re-balancing of entire ship classes, causing double work - but I digress), the first of two aspects (the other being a nerf of the tank of Fighters and Fighter Bombers) of said portion of Eve to get any attention is a relatively small change that will directly address one of the primary complaints of the largest of the nullsec power blocs, a 'downside,' to quote Fozzie's OP, that, it seems, must be addressed immediately, while any corresponding 'upside,' again quoting Fozzie, will have to await a later release that deals with more of the Drone Mechanics than simply Omni's.

There are other, even more easily modified aspects of Drone Mechanics, that could have been addressed at any point in time, such a swapping the Damage Modifiers between the Minmatar and Amarr sub-Sentry drones, something that has repeatedly been asked for in these very forums, so as to improve Amarr drones to the point where they would be useful, and bring the drone damage/speed/EHP numbers into line. This has been requested by both the PVP and PVE communities, but has never been deemed worthy of attention. Other, similar examples are available, should you search the forums.

Instead, this is the first change.

So, yes, we have our questions.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#131 - 2014-01-18 04:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Leigh Akiga
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank.
I don't know how you operate such a ship in null


You use a ship with 3 million EHP and bonuses to armor resistance like the Archon. Thats why the current sentry drone craze + the damage, tracking and range mods + assist makes it over the top powerful.
Ordo Malus
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2014-01-18 06:15:54 UTC
Leigh Akiga wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed"
"this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually"


Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP.

Not too much hypocrisy there.


The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines.

Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend:

"Yes, that's right. “Ishtar.” As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."

And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today:

Goons: Dominix
EMP/TEST: Dominix
PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) (Heavy Domi use last year during Fountain War)
Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix
Razor: Ishtars
Triumvirate: ishtars
Lead Farmers: Ishtars
DARKNESS.: Switching to Dominix
SOLAR FLEET: Switching to Dominix

Literally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers ShockedShockedShocked



INK is flying Maelstroms to great success.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#133 - 2014-01-18 07:03:24 UTC
Ordo Malus wrote:
INK is flying Maelstroms to great success


Forgive me but I've never heard of INK. What regions have they taken or defended with Maelstroms?

And have they come across any bombing runs?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2014-01-18 09:52:52 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank.
I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast.

A.



You mean.. you wil ahve to dedicate the same number of module to range and damage that a normal battleship would for guns? MINUS the 6-8 gun modules themselves ?

PREPOSTEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2014-01-18 11:53:04 UTC
The real issues with these changes will be with the smaller sentry capable drone ships like the Arbitrator and Vexor.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#136 - 2014-01-18 13:48:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use (4 cap per activation) compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers.


This will put an extra cap drain especially on smaller drone ships.

Are you going to adjust the cap recharge rate on those ships to compensate?

Or is this an across the board drone ship nerf.

Added cap drain effects all offensive and defensive systems on a ship.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#137 - 2014-01-18 14:08:09 UTC
v3locity wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use (4 cap per activation) compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers.


This will put an extra cap drain especially on smaller drone ships.

Are you going to adjust the cap recharge rate on those ships to compensate?

Or is this an across the board drone ship nerf.

Added cap drain effects all offensive and defensive systems on a ship.



I doubt there has been many frigs/dessies using Omnis. In addition, the activation costs seem to below those for a warp scrambler, which shouldn't pose any issues for frigates even.

All in all, I believe that is way to strong of a nerfhammer in one go, the reduction in efficiency that is. Smaller steps downwards would be nice to prevent the same happening to those omnis that happened to TEs.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2014-01-18 14:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.

And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#139 - 2014-01-18 14:37:06 UTC
So, just another goon story, bro.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#140 - 2014-01-18 15:02:51 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.

And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way.



That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that.

With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin...