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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#161 - 2014-01-19 15:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Hasikan Miallok wrote:


If you end up with a situation that everytime something is 5% better at some specific in game scenario you nerf it 20% because it became popular and the people were not willing or able to train for it complained about it being OP you will finish up with a game where:
- either what is worth flying cycles every patch,
- OR alternatively a game where there are no real choices as everything is acuallly identical to everything else.


The second one seems to be the direction CCP is heading in. I really do understand that things have to be constantly "tweaked" but this doesn't mean nerf things with a sledgehammer or try to make things identical like they're doing with this. There is no reason just because tracking computers work one way that omnidirectional tracking links have to too.

In the past few years CCP has gone the direction of simplifying things way too much. The thing that got me into Eve was how complex and interesting it looked. I hate to say it but much of the actual gameplay is boring. It's all the complexities that makes Eve interesting to at least me and I'm sure others. CCP go ahead and make the game less interesting and complex and see how this works out...
stoicfaux
#162 - 2014-01-19 22:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Spreadsheet for computing new sentry ranges with Omni II: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing


It's set for an Ishtar. Just make a copy and update columns B, C, and D on rows 6, 14, 22, 30, etc. with your values from EFT, pyfa, etc..

Long story short, with three Omni IIs, my Ishtar's Gardes go from 72km+12k to 58km+23km. The other sentries stay at 100km+ optimal. *sniffle*


edit: Updated with pre-nerf numbers, and added unbonused, and Dominix sentries. It's a new link, the old one is now deleted.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#163 - 2014-01-19 23:46:33 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Spreadsheet for computing new sentry ranges with Omni II: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdERkd3lSMHdmaUljaU5Ha2hVXzR3dlE&usp=sharing

It's set for an Ishtar. Just make a copy and update columns B, C, and D on rows 6, 13, 20, and 27 with your values from EFT, pyfa, etc..

Long story short, with three Omni IIs, my Ishtar's Gardes go from 72km+12k to 58km+23km. The other sentries stay at 100km+ optimal. *sniffle*

/assuming_I_didn't_make_a_mistake_somewhere


I was thinking of fitting an Ishtar so this is very helpful!
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2014-01-20 00:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Nice spreadsheet

Ironically the changes make using 4 or more omnis more viable than previously as you can avoid stacking penalties by doing stuff like Garde with 3 range scripted and one tracking scripted omni.

What would make these changes a bit more manageable is the ability to group the omni so you only need one click, not 3 or 4, to change scripts for the full set/rack. I suppose in PvE you could get around this by having a mobile depot launched and having saved configurations such as 3*range/1*track , 2*range/2*track , 1*range/3*track and load the relevant configuration on the fly as the rats get closer.
sabastyian
Rents Due Crew
No Handlebars.
#165 - 2014-01-20 02:52:11 UTC
Not terribly important since not many people do them ( apparently ) but this change will kill drone ships in lvl 5 missions. Those neuts make anything short of a carriers tank suicide ( unless asb bastion'd marauder ). The lvl 5 neuts can hold a capital at 0 cap, no problem so with their loss of omni links for their sentries, their damage goes down increasing the risk for no increase reward ( to people saying their isnt much, you're in a capital scrammed in a site and you can easily be probed down, there is a risk )
Just a small thought.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#166 - 2014-01-20 14:08:22 UTC
sabastyian wrote:
Not terribly important since not many people do them ( apparently ) but this change will kill drone ships in lvl 5 missions. Those neuts make anything short of a carriers tank suicide ( unless asb bastion'd marauder ). The lvl 5 neuts can hold a capital at 0 cap, no problem so with their loss of omni links for their sentries, their damage goes down increasing the risk for no increase reward ( to people saying their isnt much, you're in a capital scrammed in a site and you can easily be probed down, there is a risk )
Just a small thought.


This change will kill more than a few drone ships, in more than a few situations.
I don't think people realize how much of an impact it will have on optimal range, especially when they start stacking them.
(though that spreadsheet is going to open a few eyes).

I am thinking of dumping my Fed Navy Omni's which are looking at a quadruple nerf, based on the deafening silence to my question about whether the Fed Navy Omni's get 18/36 stats, or the Fed Navy TC stats of 16/32, or maybe even just stuck with the T2 stats of 15/30.

Taking a module from 30% optimal to 16% optimal, 32% falloff, with cap issues, plus a loss of simultaneous tracking performance (which btw, now involve a 10 second change timer) is a massive, massive nerf.

Only someone who absolutely hates PvE would dream up such punitive changes.
And such a person should never, ever, be placed in a position where they can do so much damage to so many, particularly when they clearly enjoy doing so.
Dragonzchilde
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2014-01-20 17:00:14 UTC
or how a simple "unnerf" of the AoE DD would solve so many problems


but then CCp decided that need to be nerfed too


instead of scripting a lot of useless things, script the DD so you can choose between focused or AoE. all of the sudden, drone isuues solved.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#168 - 2014-01-20 17:18:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
You should consider dropping the tracking bonus from the Dominix and then bringing the optimal bonus back up to 10% per level.
This might be the ultimate solution. Either tracking OR range bonus. Not both.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-01-20 18:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Cap use? Really?

Well if you're brining them in line - will you drop the CPU accordingly...?




Edit:

stoicfaux wrote:
Spreadsheet for computing new sentry ranges with Omni II: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdERkd3lSMHdmaUljaU5Ha2hVXzR3dlE&usp=sharing

It's set for an Ishtar. Just make a copy and update columns B, C, and D on rows 6, 13, 20, and 27 with your values from EFT, pyfa, etc..

Long story short, with three Omni IIs, my Ishtar's Gardes go from 72km+12k to 58km+23km. The other sentries stay at 100km+ optimal. *sniffle*

/assuming_I_didn't_make_a_mistake_somewhere



That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
The Initiative.
#170 - 2014-01-20 19:12:08 UTC
I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2014-01-20 22:34:19 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is.


Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.
Moor Deybe
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#172 - 2014-01-21 01:53:39 UTC
I'd say the days of the long range Dominix sniper boat using Gardes is over, which is a shame because to get that range and DPS you had to fill the highs with Drone Link Augmentors, the mids with Omnidirectional Tracking Links, and the lows with Drone Damage Amplifiers, all at the expense of tank and mobility..........you also have to train up some very time intensive drone skills!

This fitting was a choice, but a fun choice that came with serious drawbacks i.e. thin tank and standing still next to the sentries taking incoming DPS.............which seems sort of balanced to me?

Anyway, the long range, low tank choice won't be available now, which makes the PVE use of the Dominix more restricted and less fun Sad

Ok so there's better tracking to hit frigates up close, but hey, thats what Hobgoblins are for, and as for extra falloff, who cares about that? It takes 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers to get the DPS to take down battleships at a decent rate anyway! so hitting targets into falloff at drastically reduced DPS has limited appeal in PVE.

Overheating Omnidirectional Tracking Links?...well nice to have the option, but people don't tend to do that in PVE missions and anomalies, strictly PVP only when its win at all costs, including damaging your modules to the point of destruction.

The Dominix and Ishtar will be less capable in PVE now, and I'd say the other drone boats are pretty much screwed losing that range.

It seems peculiar that these ships were deemed balanced when they were given these bonuses / stats and now they're considered not balanced? what, because more people are using them?

Perhaps CCP should just publish stats of current ship usage so people can train for a less popular one, knowing that it won't get nerfed in the next release. LOL

I feel sorry for newer players who don't have skill points spread across different ships and weapon systems, when the ship / weapons that they've just put several months worth of skill points into becomes less effective and they find themselves back where they were three months ago capability wise.

I look forward to testing this on Singularity when its released. and I'll post what I find if it differs from my current assumptions.

TL DR;

Dominix / Ishtar nerfed for PVE due to being popular in PVP
Overheating for PVP and a bit more falloff offered as a crumb of comfort.
Drone boat usage reduces, ship usage stats become more evenly spread suggesting balance
Game is less fun as all ships are the same.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#173 - 2014-01-21 02:11:22 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.

And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way.



That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that.

With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin...



Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets.

Agreed. Sentries can be killed. No other weapon system matches that. Sentries cannot return to a ship more than 2500m away. All other weapon systems travel with the ship and are protected by the ship. With these changes, it is seeming like we need to have all other systems drop their weapons in space before being able to use them and allowing those weapons to be targeted. Captain: Target the weapons systems. Gunner: Ready to fire, captain.

As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#174 - 2014-01-21 02:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: v3locity
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#175 - 2014-01-21 03:10:59 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:


As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's.


TE's are not an option. Drones are working good the way they are. They are not turrets and have many disadvantages over turrets.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#176 - 2014-01-21 03:38:46 UTC
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2014-01-21 04:36:37 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.

Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks?
stoicfaux
#178 - 2014-01-21 04:41:33 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.

I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing

It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#179 - 2014-01-21 04:48:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.

Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks?

Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2014-01-21 04:57:15 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.

Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks?

Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.

I'm willing to own up to some bias here, but were not talking about just being destructible, but also being locked in position, thus meaning that if the cruiser hull uses it's mobility it can't take it's DPS with it, which every other cruiser can do.