These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#941 - 2014-01-16 02:20:11 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:

stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about

Constructive posting at it's finest. Would it strain you overmuch to elaborate on what I said in the last two pages or so that is incorrect? Or would that be too hard?
Allus Nova
#942 - 2014-01-16 02:20:28 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Isn't there any legacy code that could stop you from introducing pointless stuff like ESS and/or MMJD?


One can only hope.



Sonilover...is there a limit to the number of these things which can be dropped in a system, or can I take a cloaky hauler into a system, drop like 25 of them at premade safespots?

The whole tags thing seems like just another annoyance for null sec ratters (not necessarily a bad thing)...also can you fix current tags so they're not quite as totally useless? Make them directly exchangeable for LP or something?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#943 - 2014-01-16 02:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Drab Cane wrote:
Am I wrong, or is the ESS essentially a siphon on null-sec ratting bounties?


it's far weirder and more convoluted than that.

basically every system in the game will now have a personal ratting bank account attached to it.

anchoring an ESS allows income to accrue in that account and be accessed. if it gets taken down or destroyed the income will still stay in the ethereal system bank account.

it's kind of like the lighthouse problem in that as long as the lighthouse is there (ESS) there is "mutual gain" -- but then it is forcibly contorted so anybody can smash the lighthouse and take money, randomly.

so strange

normal human beings would never build a device that functions in this way. ever. it just doesn't make any kind of sense.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#944 - 2014-01-16 02:28:27 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:

stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about

Constructive posting at it's finest. Would it strain you overmuch to elaborate on what I said in the last two pages or so that is incorrect? Or would that be too hard?

nothing you said had any merit to elaborate on it was just wild conjecture, all of which was wrong, which i did point out and you just bounced to new wrong wild conjecture

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
#945 - 2014-01-16 02:28:37 UTC
So a squad of pilots doing ratting might deploy an ESS, but they'll want some of their number to hang around and protect it from other squads (or solo pirates).

If we're a small 2-3 pilot squad, we might not bother with deploying one, but might get twitchy if someone else does.

I'm starting to see how this might promote more conflict.
Anton Menges Saddat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#946 - 2014-01-16 02:29:14 UTC
so what I'm getting out of this is that certain CCP members seem to be completely out of ******* touch with their own game
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#947 - 2014-01-16 02:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Drab Cane wrote:
Am I wrong, or is the ESS essentially a siphon on null-sec ratting bounties?


It looks like it's intended that way, but no it's a 30million isk speed bump. If you drop it in a hostile ratting system, it's only useful as long as it lives. If you camp it to defend it, ratters stay docked up anyways, you may as well AFK camp without the ESS. If you leave it, ratters in their high DPS ships will make short work of the 150k EHP and go back to ratting.

As for the ratters themselves, the high risk low reward keeps being brought up, but those are even ignoring the greater point which is that using an ESS draws hostiles to your space. You're not just losing that isk each time the ESS gets robbed, you're losing the ratting time as more hostiles show up to rob your ESS.

Protecting the ESS isn't just difficult, it's both impossible and counterproductive. Attackers will know what you have guarding and will be able to bring a proper counter(or simply more guys). And once again, like paying hostiles to come interrupt your ratting, offering fights to anyone who comes into your system only brings more hostiles, making your space less secure not more.

The ESS in its current form serves no purpose for anyone and exists as apparently nothing more than an excuse to justify a nerf to nullsec bounties.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#948 - 2014-01-16 02:31:14 UTC
Drab Cane wrote:
So a squad of pilots doing ratting might deploy an ESS


Doubtful.


Drab Cane wrote:
but they'll want some of their number to hang around and protect it from other squads (or solo pirates).


If they stay behind to "protect" the ESS, they aren't ratting, and are thus losing income.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#949 - 2014-01-16 02:32:40 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:

stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about

Constructive posting at it's finest. Would it strain you overmuch to elaborate on what I said in the last two pages or so that is incorrect? Or would that be too hard?

nothing you said had any merit to elaborate on it was just wild conjecture, all of which was wrong, which i did point out and you just bounced to new wrong wild conjecture

Where exactly did you point out any source that said I was wrong? CCP said their is too much isk coming out of nullsec, which is entirely possible. Where exaclty is your up to date source that contradicts this, oh goonsire?

Richard TheLordOfDance
Operation Fishbowl Inc.
#950 - 2014-01-16 02:33:16 UTC
I like the idea of the ESS but the execution could use some tweaking.

This is what I've gathered from reading other peoples reactions towards the ESS.
The nerf to bounties can stay as long as it's not more than 5%, it should give a slightly higher boost though, something like 115-120% instead of 105%, to motivate people to actually use it (most won't with the current ones).
When you distribute the isk you shouldn't lose all the bonus you've built up but rather something like 1% so you can't spam it all the time, when you take everything it should reset though.
the time for accessing would be better placed around 30-40 seconds and printing would fit better at 3-5 minutes since this should give people time to actually warp to station and swap to a pvp ship and respond to the threat, an inty shouldn't be able to warp in steal all the money and warp out before the BSes have even gotten out of warp! You should also be able to stop the printing and distribute the isk, if it's a large pot some major disputes could arise that would probably result in a ban on the ESS in that alliance if this wasn't possible.

The number may even more tweaking but the sum of it all is that a 5% increase of your isk reward isn't enough to justify the nerf and the risk of having a ESS with the currently presented stats and mechanics.


And no I will not read 45 pages of "discussion" to see if someone already suggested something similar
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#951 - 2014-01-16 02:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


e1: Going to call back a much earlier post in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4108628#post4108628

Elements of this could be incorporated, most notably the somewhat higher EHP and the short, fixed duration reinforcement timer as a means of governing access, thus committing someone seeking to steal from the structure to both having a decent amount of DPS and giving defenders a reasonable amount of time to reship and respond.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#952 - 2014-01-16 02:33:37 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

It is entirely possible for too much isk to be coming out of nullsec without income in nullsec being too high. The two are not mutually exclusive.


stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about

Take your own advice -- this guy is one of the few posters in this thread who actually understands the difference between income and isk generation.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Allus Nova
#953 - 2014-01-16 02:34:09 UTC
i hatechosingnames wrote:
Dear players,

We love the massive battles you wage that we use for publicity, to make these amazing 4000 man brawls even more rare we are making it (yet again) even harder for the basic alliance line member to make the isk to pay for it all.

GG :CCP:



Yea...seriously how much more tedious do they want to make earning the money so we can afford to keep doing pvp...I feel like I spend enough time grinding anomalies as it is.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#954 - 2014-01-16 02:37:29 UTC
Querns wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

It is entirely possible for too much isk to be coming out of nullsec without income in nullsec being too high. The two are not mutually exclusive.


stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about

Take your own advice -- this guy is one of the few posters in this thread who actually understands the difference between income and isk generation.

Big smile

mynnna wrote:

...

It's good to see reasoned, thought out proposals for change. +1
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#955 - 2014-01-16 02:37:54 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


Despite my general acceptance of the way things are currently stated, this is a good compromise and would eliminate many issues with the design that people seem to have. I would ask that any LP being generated be redeemable in NPC low/nullsec, however, as to not accidentally preclude those with negative security status.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Anton Menges Saddat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#956 - 2014-01-16 02:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Menges Saddat
Alphea Abbra wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.
I'd honestly like to see a post that did not respond proportionally to the ignorance shown by CCP.
Your assumption that the EVE community (Esp. 0.0) are idiots is inflammatory to us.
Furthermore, your gross misrepresentation, strawmanning, and red herring back when you "summed up" the criticism was pretty disgusting. Your continued evasion of the criticism is, likewise, an insult to our intelligence and waste of development resources and customer goodwill/feedback.
Your disregard for the wellbeing of a large portion of the game is troubling.

In short, I'm insulted. I hope you're trolling, I fear you aren't.

I've seen a few posters call into question the continouos employment of you and/or the team you are a part of. Where else has there been any inflammatory posts, or posts that weren't proportional to your insult to the community (As stated above)?

I was basically going to post this but you saved me the trouble. I'm more bothered by the CCP responses and attitude in this thread than I am by that of any capsuleer. I see a particular dev keep deflecting useful feedback criticism and treating the players like idiots. When someone asks you a specific question and you 'answer' it in a roundabout way that doesn't even address what you were asked, people tend to notice and get offended.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#957 - 2014-01-16 02:43:31 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Stuff


To roughly quote somebody else in the thread...

"Any deployable that takes more than seventeen bullet points and seven paragraphs to justify is probably a bad idea."

I don't think your changes improve anything. If anything it might make it worse just because it's making it even more complicated.

Should ratting REALLY involve interacting with the Holy Space ATM?

Is that the kind of direction that is good for the game?

Most of the deployables I really like are ones that are easy to understand, easy to use, and with a clear, defined purpose. Something new that is enabled.

This thing is like "We're taking something away, and then making you anchor a stupid black box to give it back to you."

That's not new. It's not even a feature. It's just spacetrash.
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#958 - 2014-01-16 02:43:56 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.



i would go as far as to say this allows you to increase null sec player income and reduce inflation at the same time. now you can start balancing the risk/reward in the game in a real and effective way.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#959 - 2014-01-16 02:45:16 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Where exactly did you point out any source that said I was wrong? CCP said their is too much isk coming out of nullsec, which is entirely possible. Where exaclty is your up to date source that contradicts this, oh goonsire?

Our source would be the CSM summer summit minutes, where Dr. EyjoG specifically stated that isk faucets are not a problem in their current state.

You know, the guy actual economist they hired to know this kind of **** in the first place. I'm pretty sure he understands the economy better than codemonkey dev who'd rather be working for Sega.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#960 - 2014-01-16 02:45:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


Despite my general acceptance of the way things are currently stated, this is a good compromise and would eliminate many issues with the design that people seem to have. I would ask that any LP being generated be redeemable in NPC low/nullsec, however, as to not accidentally preclude those with negative security status.


Negative sec status doesn't matter if your in a pod.