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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Allus Nova
#961 - 2014-01-16 02:46:04 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


Mynnna,

This seems like it would be a happy medium, if I had the ability to snag some LP while I was grinding anoms, maybe I wouldn't just stop what I was doing the second one of these was dropped, and start forming up an instacane or alphanado gang to take it down. The 5% stick added to it seems like kind of a petty way to **** and moan about ratters making too much money to fund their pvp.

As far as these things spitting out the "isk tags" (or in your case LP tags) in 40 seconds...that's total bullshit. 40 seconds isn't enough time to form a fleet to counter one of these, or to counter the "warning" that someone just warped to your deployed unit. This will make them unusable. The timer should be 5 minutes with warnings posted in local every like 30 seconds, give us time to swap out of our ratting ships and actually get into some PvP gear.

This is the single most invalidating property of this thing. If we can't defend it, we won't use it. If it's purpose is to be a punitive punishment for ratters, then the hell with it, just decrease bounties and call it a day, don't introduce some broken item that has a terrible mechanic behind it because they're "worried about inflation." Look at what incursions are paying and tell me with a straight face that CCP is doing anything to fight inflation.

If CCP makes getting isk tedious enough, they will just be encourage botting. Nobody wants that, at least not those of us who actually play.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#962 - 2014-01-16 02:46:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Where exactly did you point out any source that said I was wrong? CCP said their is too much isk coming out of nullsec, which is entirely possible. Where exaclty is your up to date source that contradicts this, oh goonsire?

Our source would be the CSM summer summit minutes, where Dr. EyjoG specifically stated that isk faucets are not a problem in their current state.

You know, the guy actual economist they hired to know this kind of **** in the first place. I'm pretty sure he understands the economy better than codemonkey dev who'd rather be working for Sega.

Funny, your economic cabal people seem to agree with my points. vOv
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#963 - 2014-01-16 02:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Pinky Hops wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Stuff


To roughly quote somebody else in the thread...

"Any deployable that takes more than seventeen bullet points and seven paragraphs to justify is probably a bad idea."

I don't think your changes improve anything. If anything it might make it worse just because it's making it even more complicated.

Should ratting REALLY involve interacting with the Holy Space ATM?

Is that the kind of direction that is good for the game?

Most of the deployables I really like are ones that are easy to understand, easy to use, and with a clear, defined purpose. Something new that is enabled.

This thing is like "We're taking something away, and then making you anchor a stupid black box to give it back to you."

That's not new. It's not even a feature. It's just spacetrash.


"Your payout is unchanged. If you want, you can risk a portion of your payout, and in doing so receive that portion and then some back in the form of LP."

Seems easy enough to me to explain. First sentence is also key. Idea would be making the carrot attractive enough to not need the stick.

Jenn aSide wrote:


Negative sec status doesn't matter if your in a pod.

Rather hard to carry tags when you're in a pod, too, and as thieves would be making off with tags, his point is sensible.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#964 - 2014-01-16 02:49:21 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

Should ratting REALLY involve interacting with the Holy Space ATM?


if as he claims inflation is unchecked and rampant then this is a better alternative. but yes this deployable is convoluted bulky and overly complicated considering the problem at hand.


Pinky Hops wrote:

This thing is like "We're taking something away, and then making you anchor a stupid black box to give it back to you."
That's not new. It's not even a feature. It's just spacetrash.



as it is you are 100% correct
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#965 - 2014-01-16 02:54:01 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

Should ratting REALLY involve interacting with the Holy Space ATM?


if as he claims inflation is unchecked and rampant then this is a better alternative. but yes this deployable is convoluted bulky and overly complicated considering the problem at hand.


Here's a solution -- straight nerf ratting bounties. Period. Just do it, say you're doing it, and say why.

To compensate, add new content with new rewards for nullsec -- something that it isn't ISK (directly) but would be worth ISK.

The key is content, something that is actually fun and interesting to interact with.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#966 - 2014-01-16 02:55:06 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.



I believe I have shot 5bil in bounties, and dropped and exported over 2bil in OPEs since I have lived here. (note that as it stands nearly half the drop payout of a piths penal is OPE by value on average at this point in time as the loot table is aged and not in demand).

ie it would be manifestly easier to make the OPE exchangeable for LP than it would rewrite boringomolies. I could still sell the OPEs in Jita and whoever wanted to go cash them in for LP could then buy them off me.

The concord buy orders for OPEs can then be dropped.

Presto - significant reduction in nullsec based pure isk generation and some cross-attachment of nullsec income to LP undersupply.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#967 - 2014-01-16 03:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
It must suck to work at CCP. They've designed something that, if used, results in 100-105% of the current ISK faucet being in place. However, one stated design goal of the unit is to reduce ISK entering the system, meaning it needs to be designed such that more people rat without it, than with it.

That's like trying to solve global warming, by going to a BMW engineer and saying "I want you to design a car that makes people drive fewer miles per year .... no I don't know how to do that, try to make it stall all the time or something and generally be annoying to use".

There's 2 options:
1) Soniclover is lying
2) Soniclover is telling the truth. In this scenario, the intended design of this deployable has to make people not want to use it, and are being told to go and sell it as an exciting new feature.

It must suck to work at CCP.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Jin So
Sev3rance
#968 - 2014-01-16 03:01:49 UTC
shouldnt have the need to go to highsec unless it is to gank freighters
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#969 - 2014-01-16 03:01:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Querns wrote:

Despite my general acceptance of the way things are currently stated, this is a good compromise and would eliminate many issues with the design that people seem to have. I would ask that any LP being generated be redeemable in NPC low/nullsec, however, as to not accidentally preclude those with negative security status.


Negative sec status doesn't matter if your in a pod.


Yeah, but then how do you get the LP reward items you've purchased out of the station? Does it then require dualboxing just to get paid for running a few sites?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Vahl Ahashion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#970 - 2014-01-16 03:04:11 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
greiton starfire wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

Should ratting REALLY involve interacting with the Holy Space ATM?


if as he claims inflation is unchecked and rampant then this is a better alternative. but yes this deployable is convoluted bulky and overly complicated considering the problem at hand.


Here's a solution -- straight nerf ratting bounties. Period. Just do it, say you're doing it, and say why.

To compensate, add new content with new rewards for nullsec -- something that it isn't ISK (directly) but would be worth ISK.

The key is content, something that is actually fun and interesting to interact with.


Like the rumored ring mining, link it to boosting null sec industry somehow et voila, people are manufacturing in null sec as CCP have said they want them to.
Allus Nova
#971 - 2014-01-16 03:04:22 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.



Wait...what? Look, if it takes even a SINGLE pilot to sit and protect that thing (still won't be affective against something like a interceptor gang) then you're losing more isk/hr than you are by gaining the 5% increase unless you have 50 people out ratting.

A fairly lazy ratter who isn't salvaging can easily make 15 million isk ticks, with proper equipment in good sec status space you can double that. So the reward would have to be better than 45 million an hour for this to be worth it not even considering the risk a group of ratters would be taking.

This seems like a quite poorly conceived item. If you're looking for ways to crank down the isk faucet, why not add either deployables or POS modules that convert some of the bounty into LP. Sell those modules in high sec directly from the factions themselves (direct isk sink) and convert 20% of all bounty isk at like 800 isk per LP (which is what they'll probably drop to with the increased supply vs demand and dropping price of faction gear).

This would enable pilots to gather up some LP while in null sec, you could add units from various factions (SOE, pirate factions, etc) and it would encourage people to use faction modules in PvP as their prices would drop. Also it would accomplish your goal of slowing the nullsec isk faucet.

Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#972 - 2014-01-16 03:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Allus Nova wrote:
you're losing more isk/hr than you are by gaining the 5% increase unless you have 50 people out ratting.



...because any null-sec system supports 50 people ratting simultaneously without sparking extinction level event drama.
Von Reichenbach
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#973 - 2014-01-16 03:06:53 UTC
While I hate this idea as it stands, I see one option to make the process worth it.

Add a small standings buff with the Empires during turn in. This would sweeten the carrot by making the tags valuable in an extra way.

Other than that, it is purely an extra griefing tool. But I guess that's what the Grrr Goonies want...

Let me know when the people Burn Jita over this... Ill be there.
Allus Nova
#974 - 2014-01-16 03:08:21 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Allus Nova wrote:
you're losing more isk/hr than you are by gaining the 5% increase unless you have 50 people out ratting.



...because any null-sec system supports 50 people ratting simultaneously without sparking extinction level event drama.



Exactly my point...there is no point at which this thing becomes cost effective to use, it seems like it is nothing more than a punitive way to penalize ratters. There are simpler ways to do this other than introduce worthless modules.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#975 - 2014-01-16 03:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Von Reichenbach wrote:
But I guess that's what the Grrr Goonies want...



Yeah, obviously the 'Goonies' want 90% of their alliance mates income nerfed for no other reason than 'just because'. This is literally just another bullet point in the list of stupid **** CCP has hamfisted into existence.


Stagnant game is dying, etc.
greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#976 - 2014-01-16 03:22:58 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Von Reichenbach wrote:
But I guess that's what the Grrr Goonies want...



Yeah, obviously the 'Goonies' want 90% of their alliance mates income nerfed for no other reason than 'just because'. This is literally just another bullet point in the list of stupid **** CCP has hamfisted into existence.


Stagnant game is dying, etc.



i think he meant the people who blindly associate all null sec with us and therefore support any bad thing that happens to null cause it would in turn happen to us.
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#977 - 2014-01-16 03:27:52 UTC
WELP! Time to make a highsec alt to run missions/incursions. :condi: :CCP: :condi:

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Sokor Loro
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#978 - 2014-01-16 03:30:44 UTC
Nori Galathil wrote:
Do not put this module in game as is currently thought to function. This will not cause conflict like you think. Listen to the null player base GSF it is telling you.


As a member of the nullsec player base I offer only praise and support for the ESS.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#979 - 2014-01-16 03:31:23 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
i think he meant the people who blindly associate all null sec with us and therefore support any bad thing that happens to null cause it would in turn happen to us.


Oh I just blindly assume anyone in WHYS0 whatever is a literal mouth-breathing idiot incapable of any level of higher order thinking, irony, or any other form of passé sardonicism.

I may have mis-read that, but I believe my point still stands.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#980 - 2014-01-16 03:32:13 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


e1: Going to call back a much earlier post in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4108628#post4108628

Elements of this could be incorporated, most notably the somewhat higher EHP and the short, fixed duration reinforcement timer as a means of governing access, thus committing someone seeking to steal from the structure to both having a decent amount of DPS and giving defenders a reasonable amount of time to reship and respond.


A couple of points and questions:

The population of the game already tends to congregate where particular LP stores are more desirable than others; this would likely increase the value of living in Guristas rat territory over others, and may serve to reduce the population in some already sparse locales. Is this a desirable outcome?

A stick may prove necessary to drive players to use the ESS if the LP payouts available to them are not desirable. What could be done in lieu of reducing bounty payouts?