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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#921 - 2014-01-16 01:39:27 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Xolve wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I agree that the ESS is a pointless item in general, but most of the people aren't complaining about the ESS, they're complaining about their income getting nerfed. We don't have the up-to-date metrics available to us to know if it is warranted.


Nerfing an income source that supports at MAX maybe 5 simultaneous users in a fully upgraded system with decent true sec (that an alliance is paying for) seems a bit strange when Level 4 missions can support an infinite number of pilots, with little to no risk.

As has been stated repeatedly, missions come with an isk sink: the lp store. In order to get maximum isk/hour, you need to sink much of the raw isk you make from isk payouts into the lp store, taking that isk out of circulation. Then you sell the LP store items on the market to get your most isk/hr.

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be) the problem isn't that income in null is too high, the problem is that ISK coming out of null it too high. Those two are not the same thing, e.g.when you get a deadspace drop and sell it on the market, your income goes up, but you inject no isk into the market.


Then the fix is replace some of the bounties with CONCORD LP like incursions. In-game CONCORD is the source of the bounties anyways. A null pve player would need to physically move the pve toon to the nearest empire CONCORD station to cash in, with would be a further isk sink because the pve toon isn't ratting right then (though the time can be minmized by jump cloning and death cloning).

But this ESS thing is crazy, because all it's going to do is shift a balance sheet thats already slanted away from null sec further away from null sec. There's a reason I and others are running incursions and sisters/thukker missions and FW farming already rather than being in null full time where we'd like to be.
Xaerael Endiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#922 - 2014-01-16 01:42:12 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Xaerael Endiel wrote:

The ESS is literally the most pointless thing ever made

That's not true, it makes an excellent medium warp disruptor. Lol

I agree that the ESS is a pointless item in general, but most of the people aren't complaining about the ESS, they're complaining about their income getting nerfed. We don't have the up-to-date metrics available to us to know if it is warranted.


I'm going to strongly disclaimer this as "I don't give a crap, unless some berk drops an ESS in space I use".

My opinion stands that (I hope) people are more annoyed at nerfs being dressed as buffs. To be honest, nullsec inhabitants totally have the right to be getting frustrated by all the nerfs to income. They've been coming in thick and fast for quite some time now, from the addition of frigs to anoms to Interceptors being made far to uncatchable.

The answer to controlling inflation isn't to gut the value of ratting in nullsec. If it continues (and this has already started), Null folks will simply start making FW alts and farm FW instead.

I hope people's primary concern is based on those two things, and condensed into the simple fact that Sov is increasingly becoming worth less and less, and heading to the brink of becoming a pointless endeavour. Sov should be the most valuable ground in the game bar none. It's fought for, it's expensive and time consuming to keep. If people in null corps start bleeding into FW on alts, those alts don't transfer tax % to corps to pay for the sov bills. And what has got CCP it's greatest media coverage in the past year? The battle for 6VDT. A battle in sov space, for sov space. Space that's soon to be devalued by 5%.

Can you see where people are getting annoyed yet? The ESS nerf (it's a nerf) as it stands isn't the answer. Nullsec LP from an ESS and LP stores that sell either pirate faction stuff, or new "nullware" mods are a great answer.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#923 - 2014-01-16 01:45:11 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


The risk reward equation seems to favor doing without the ESS. Perhaps there should be an intrinsic benefit to deploying one? Local in null-security space could be changed to operate in delayed mode, with the Encounter Surveillance System placing local back to immediate mode.

I'm sure people would hate that one, but hey, I've already pulled off the hat trick of three loathed ideas in a row. P
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#924 - 2014-01-16 01:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Kalenn Istarion wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:


If you want to minimize inflation you should increase the costs for other stuff in the game. especially the prices for production lines in highsec stations are ridiculously low and could easily be increased by a factor of 100 without hurting anyone producing anything in highsec



Need to be careful in commenting on inflation versus money supply. Implementing a tax would take money out of the system thus reducing money supply, but would likely lead in the short term to inflation (defined as an increase in prices) as producers seek the easiest solution for maintaining margins. Eventually there would likely be a flow-through effect of reduced prices on minerals (and thus settling through into reduced finished good prices) as the value of the currency increases, but this would take time and wouldn't be a guaranteed outcome.

It is advantageous however in that producers have an avenue to recover their increased costs while ratters do not, short of the broken ESS. Producer price increases are also spread over a greater portion of the total system, rather than directly hitting a subset of players (mostly newer ones) for whom ratting is a sole income source.

Conclusion: This whole thing really needs to be re-thought, as it appears that there are conflicting and unclear goals driving the introduction of this device and associated flat nerf to ratting income.


manufacturing costs (read production line costs) make up a very (!) small part of the end price for items. most of the cost comes from material.

lets take a 425mm railgun as an example. market price is approximately 2.000.000 ISK, production lines costs are about 50 ISK for each. increase that by a factor of 100 we have 5.000 ISK. do you really think it's going to increase prices and inflation as you claim ?

it may be enough to make a difference in the money-entering and money-leaving game, but widespread inflation ? meh
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#925 - 2014-01-16 01:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
So basically what I've gathered is that SoniClover is lying through his teeth when he states his intentions as creating a module to give us the possibility of increased payouts. That's definitely not what he's after. He knows the deployable will not induce conflict, he knows that ratters are not going to use this to potentially increase their payouts. He's only interested in introducing unnecessary ISK sinks (NPC sell orders for these items) and reducing the ISK faucet (NPC bounties - 5%) to counteract what he imagines as an economic problem, one that an actual economist said was perfectly fine.

He's entirely unconcerned with the massive amounts of ISK highsec and incursion runners are getting, especially in the wake of the SoE changes. He believes, for some completely insane reason, that income balance only needs to be discerned from the narrow lense of sinks and faucets and disparities of risk versus reward can be safely ignored. And he probably wonders why people stop ratting in null and move to highsec to make a decent income.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#926 - 2014-01-16 01:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Xolve wrote:

Somebody, somewhere is paying for that Sov (and it costs quite a bit more than the paltry costs of a few lp store items);

Your paltry sov fees are nothing compared to the amount of isk sunk in the lp stores by tens of thousands of people each day, every day.

Jenn aSide wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be) the problem isn't that income in null is too high, the problem is that ISK coming out of null it too high. Those two are not the same thing, e.g.when you get a deadspace drop and sell it on the market, your income goes up, but you inject no isk into the market.


Then the fix is replace some of the bounties with CONCORD LP like incursions. In-game CONCORD is the source of the bounties anyways. A null pve player would need to physically move the pve toon to the nearest empire CONCORD station to cash in, with would be a further isk sink because the pve toon isn't ratting right then (though the time can be minmized by jump cloning and death cloning).

Sure go for it.

See, I think the problem for CCP isn't "Those people make too much money in total safety" (hisec) or "that region has a per capita income that is too high!"

I think it's much simpler than that. I think the raw amount of isk coming out of nullsec and being injected into the market is too high for CCP's liking. Nothing to do with income from linemembers. Keep in mind that total amount of isk in the economy affects everyone and everything. Nerfing hisec won't fix the problem if most of the raw isk isn't coming from hisec, for example.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#927 - 2014-01-16 01:54:13 UTC
The ESS looks like the result of two things.

1. They want to nerf the 'safe' ratting income in null-sec.
2. They want to create more small anchorable structures, to take advantage of the recent work they've done in the direction.

Those are two valid concerns, but the solutions are just not compatible in this way. The ESS is a big miss. Trying to kill two birds with one stone, when instead you'll just have happy birds perched on top of a pile of stones.
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#928 - 2014-01-16 01:56:03 UTC


The reasoning is terrible mr sonic lover.

Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#929 - 2014-01-16 01:57:31 UTC
How bout you fix proper ****. And not move even more people from 0.0 to high sec? What am I thinking, thats good advice..

You have completely lost it btw.
greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#930 - 2014-01-16 01:59:19 UTC
Turelus wrote:
If there is an inflation issue speak openly about it with the community and tell us you need to take steps to fix it which will actually fix it. We don't want to see the economy go to hell any more than you.



this, if inflation is a serious issue just tell us and speak with us about solving the issue. there are many things that have to be looked at besides sinks and faucets. you also have to consider risk/reward. as it stands people can make far more isk anywhere except null sec, where the risk is greater than anywhere else. you want to fix inflation, look at all the great ideas we came up with in a matter of minutes that take this into account, most prominently null sec lp.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#931 - 2014-01-16 02:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Xaerael Endiel wrote:

Sov should be the most valuable ground in the game bar none.

Debatable, could make an argument for WH's, but not really relevant to the topic at hand.

Xaerael Endiel wrote:

I hope people's primary concern is based on those two things, and condensed into the simple fact that Sov is increasingly becoming worth less and less, and heading to the brink of becoming a pointless endeavour.

I understand where your coming from, I too live in nullsec. But where you're coming from is an income problem, not an isk problem.

CCP has an isk problem that they apparently are choosing to fix now.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#932 - 2014-01-16 02:06:32 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.



if you are concerned about isk inflation then just cut npc isk by half and replace the other half with tags that can be traded for LP.

much much better idea.

that way the amount of isk comming into the game is greatly reduced but the drops can then be traded for isk already in game.

heck i would just blanket this idea and put it all across eve.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#933 - 2014-01-16 02:11:29 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


lmfao you actually have no idea do you
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#934 - 2014-01-16 02:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
CCP SoniClover wrote:

I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.


Pointing out that your design is broken and based on a fictional account of how Eve Online works is not "inflammatory". You're getting inflammatory posts in response to the entirely justified anger at your refusal to acknowledge the flaws.

CCP SoniClover wrote:

If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


It won't, this is incontrovertible fact. To say this you are either naive, ignorant, or flat out lying. Anyone who lives in nullsec knows that EVERYONE who stumbles into system is there to steal and kill anything thet can grab.

If you're not intentionally lying, it reeks of someone who has not actually done anomaly ratting. Go try it. Rat a billion isk up running nullsec anomalies, and every time a hostile enters local without you killing them, pay them 20% of your income since you last took a break. You'll quickly see why this is a terrible idea.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.


You're just embarrassing yourself now.

So basically you KNOW nobody is going to use the ESS and it's intended as nothing more than an excuse to arbitrarily nerf nullsec income while leaving highsec and FW faucets untouched.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#935 - 2014-01-16 02:12:13 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


lmfao you actually have no idea do you

I thought that was evident from the beginning.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Turelus
Utassi Security
#936 - 2014-01-16 02:13:21 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.



if you are concerned about isk inflation then just cut npc isk by half and replace the other half with tags that can be traded for LP.

much much better idea.

that way the amount of isk comming into the game is greatly reduced but the drops can then be traded for isk already in game.

heck i would just blanket this idea and put it all across eve.


A 5% reduction on all NPC bounties across EVE and then let allow current NPC tags to be traded for LP with various factions.
This would reduce the inflow of pure bounties ISK from across the entirety of EVE and make the currently worthless NPC tags have greater value to sell for ISK or convert to LP.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#937 - 2014-01-16 02:14:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


lmfao you actually have no idea do you

I thought that was evident from the beginning.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is how you get the devs to ignore every single thing you say. Well done. *golfclap*

It is entirely possible for too much isk to be coming out of nullsec without income in nullsec being too high. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
#938 - 2014-01-16 02:15:26 UTC
Am I wrong, or is the ESS essentially a siphon on null-sec ratting bounties?
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#939 - 2014-01-16 02:17:44 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


lmfao you actually have no idea do you

I thought that was evident from the beginning.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is how you get the devs to ignore every single thing you say. Well done. *golfclap*

It is entirely possible for too much isk to be coming out of nullsec without income in nullsec being too high. The two are not mutually exclusive.


stop posting when you don't know what you're talking about
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#940 - 2014-01-16 02:19:26 UTC
Drab Cane wrote:
Am I wrong, or is the ESS essentially a siphon on null-sec ratting bounties?


It will probably be a siphon on nullsec based subscription numbers.