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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#901 - 2014-01-16 01:06:48 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.
I'd honestly like to see a post that did not respond proportionally to the ignorance shown by CCP.
Your assumption that the EVE community (Esp. 0.0) are idiots is inflammatory to us.
Furthermore, your gross misrepresentation, strawmanning, and red herring back when you "summed up" the criticism was pretty disgusting. Your continued evasion of the criticism is, likewise, an insult to our intelligence and waste of development resources and customer goodwill/feedback.
Your disregard for the wellbeing of a large portion of the game is troubling.

In short, I'm insulted. I hope you're trolling, I fear you aren't.

I've seen a few posters call into question the continouos employment of you and/or the team you are a part of. Where else has there been any inflammatory posts, or posts that weren't proportional to your insult to the community (As stated above)?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#902 - 2014-01-16 01:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Tauranon wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.

This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.

Not weird, arbitrary oddities...


Regardless of whether or not more ->bounties<- come from null, more ->value<- to the individual comes from using the Osmon level 4 agent. That is reflected by the entire active population of Vale of the Silent (both GENTS and PBLRD sov space) being below Osmon and its surrounding couple of systems (where the runners also get sent).



I think the difference is, adding value is generally a good thing for the economy as it means more items for players to purchase and cheaper prices.

For example IIRC from the dev blog, something like 80% of all value in the market comes from players manufacturing items. If that activity was nerfed -- the prices of items would go up, which is bad for everybody (except maybe a few people who would be in a position to take advantage) . Likewise if it was harder to get LP -- then all the things that cost LP would increase in price....

Conversely adding straight ISK to the economy (too much anyways) has bad effects - especially on the price of PLEX - which CCP has always tried to keep at a reasonable price. They even seed PLEX's themselves if the price gets too high.

Why is nullsec ratting bounties being targeted in particular as an ISK faucet?

No idea -- my primary guess is just like I recently posted -- that it has been botted, and this is just their incredibly poor idea of dealing with it.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#903 - 2014-01-16 01:09:09 UTC
What happens when an unstoppable force (team superfriends or more specifically SoniClover) meets an immovable object (eve playerbase)?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#904 - 2014-01-16 01:09:25 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I'm not posting this to be an ass but your posts have been somewhat contradicting in regards to the ISK sink.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


If the goal of the 5% decrease in bounties received is to reduce ISK coming into the game why are you developing a module which you're telling everyone will increase their income from what it is now.
The only way this would work as an ISK sink is as someone else posted earlier you make the ESS so repulsive that no one wants to use it and just takes the 5% income hit.

You can't tell us you're worried about inflation and income of ISK while producing modules which are going to increase that if used correctly. Imagine if against all the laws of EVE everyone made a pact to not mess with each others ESS, you then just increased the ISK coming into the game.

I think CCP needs to put its hand up and admit that right now the ESS is not something which should be released in Rubicon 1.1 and take it to F&I to work over with the community. If there is an inflation issue speak openly about it with the community and tell us you need to take steps to fix it which will actually fix it. We don't want to see the economy go to hell any more than you.

I will once again say that if you want this as an ISK sink make it turn ISK into LP like myself and others have said.


Perhaps there is a simple answer:

To prevent future inflation, they were asked not to overtly increase nullsec bounties. To make room for this, while maintaining the nullsec isk faucet at current levels, they are decreasing all nullsec bounties by 5% under the premise that the nullbears that utilize the new ESS will make that income back on the whole.

To be frank, I suspect most nullbears won't want to "defend their space" and wont use the module, but with some appropriate tweaks I bet there are plenty who would.
Kalenn Istarion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#905 - 2014-01-16 01:10:43 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:


If you want to minimize inflation you should increase the costs for other stuff in the game. especially the prices for production lines in highsec stations are ridiculously low and could easily be increased by a factor of 100 without hurting anyone producing anything in highsec



Need to be careful in commenting on inflation versus money supply. Implementing a tax would take money out of the system thus reducing money supply, but would likely lead in the short term to inflation (defined as an increase in prices) as producers seek the easiest solution for maintaining margins. Eventually there would likely be a flow-through effect of reduced prices on minerals (and thus settling through into reduced finished good prices) as the value of the currency increases, but this would take time and wouldn't be a guaranteed outcome.

It is advantageous however in that producers have an avenue to recover their increased costs while ratters do not, short of the broken ESS. Producer price increases are also spread over a greater portion of the total system, rather than directly hitting a subset of players (mostly newer ones) for whom ratting is a sole income source.

Conclusion: This whole thing really needs to be re-thought, as it appears that there are conflicting and unclear goals driving the introduction of this device and associated flat nerf to ratting income.

Try Harder.

Xolve
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#906 - 2014-01-16 01:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
ITT: People surprised that CCP doesn't understand their own game, and makes completely **** decisions in trying to improve their game with any other result than something subpar to what they started with.


It takes a pretty special person to take the worst PvE content in an MMO, and then somehow make it worse.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#907 - 2014-01-16 01:16:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Turelus wrote:
I'm not posting this to be an ass but your posts have been somewhat contradicting in regards to the ISK sink.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


If the goal of the 5% decrease in bounties received is to reduce ISK coming into the game why are you developing a module which you're telling everyone will increase their income from what it is now.
The only way this would work as an ISK sink is as someone else posted earlier you make the ESS so repulsive that no one wants to use it and just takes the 5% income hit.

You can't tell us you're worried about inflation and income of ISK while producing modules which are going to increase that if used correctly. Imagine if against all the laws of EVE everyone made a pact to not mess with each others ESS, you then just increased the ISK coming into the game.

I think CCP needs to put its hand up and admit that right now the ESS is not something which should be released in Rubicon 1.1 and take it to F&I to work over with the community. If there is an inflation issue speak openly about it with the community and tell us you need to take steps to fix it which will actually fix it. We don't want to see the economy go to hell any more than you.

I will once again say that if you want this as an ISK sink make it turn ISK into LP like myself and others have said.


Perhaps there is a simple answer:

To prevent future inflation, they were asked not to overtly increase nullsec bounties. To make room for this, while maintaining the nullsec isk faucet at current levels, they are decreasing all nullsec bounties by 5% under the premise that the nullbears that utilize the new ESS will make that income back on the whole.

To be frank, I suspect most nullbears won't want to "defend their space" and wont use the module, but with some appropriate tweaks I bet there are plenty who would.


The simple answer was how we all thought this would work when we first saw the rumors.

The easy solution was to have no nerf to null at all. If you install the module you would instead get increased payouts in LP or some other non-faucet. However, this would come with some sort of much longer minimum time to "harvest". Perhaps 24 hour timers or something else that makes it worth fighting over and worth using.

As it stands right now, no actual ratter will want to use this as the RISK:REWARD is hilariously bad. It is best used offensively not as a way to improve your income.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Xaerael Endiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#908 - 2014-01-16 01:16:48 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.

Ah yes, I forgot that Goonswarm receives the same up to the minute metrics from CCP that are available to the devs. My apologies, Goonsire. Clearly, that's how you know he's wrong, right? Right? Roll

Honestly, most of the posts in this thread can be summed up as:
"Boohooohooo, I don't want to fight for my 5%"


I don't think you get it, really. The 5% drop is literally nothing. I don't think anyone in Null would be too cut up over a 5% blanket cut in ratting bounties. If you want to put it in perspective, it's less than a mil lost per 20 mins ratting, making the average per tick income of the average solo null ratter 17.1 mil, rather than 18 mil.

That means (barring losses and discounting looting which can enhance income greatly now due to the MTUS) about 12 hours to a PLEX rather than 11 hrs 30 mins. That's right, 30 mins difference to make 620 mil. One and a half ticks extra (about the length of time it takes to complete one anom).

The ESS is literally the most pointless thing ever made, and does none of the things it's meant to. That's why people are being frustrated about it. It's a nerf dressed as a buff, which people are finding quite an insult to their intelligence.

Personally, I'd have prefered it if CCP had just said "OK guys, ratting income is a bit high, we're gonna drop it by 5%".

I literally have a bag of "better ideas" if null income is really that much of a problem, too! Since we've established these will literally cause zero gudfites, how about we keep the ESS, carve off the 20% income as intended, and make null income partially LP based, paid out by the ESS, and the LP store isk sink model is employed (with none of this silly incremental % increase nonsense)?

I'm literally putting no thought into these Ideas, and they all seem to be better than the ESS in it's current guise.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#909 - 2014-01-16 01:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Xaerael Endiel wrote:

The ESS is literally the most pointless thing ever made

That's not true, it makes an excellent medium warp disruptor. Lol

I agree that the ESS is a pointless item in general, but most of the people aren't complaining about the ESS, they're complaining about their income getting nerfed. We don't have the up-to-date metrics available to us to know if it is warranted.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#910 - 2014-01-16 01:25:59 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:

maybe it is because I am blonde and a woman but where will the fight be?

As I outlined in my post there wont be any new fights. There MIGHT be one short structure bash, and that is it. And for what reward? None that I can see, nor can those with more math then I.

so.. can you please explain where the conflicts will be? Help us please understand your vision because I think a lot of us are missing it.

please?


If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


Won't be a nerf at all as we'll simply adjust out of null sec into other places. Did you guys learn nothing from the systems upgrade nerf your company had to turn around and un-nerf (through the isk/ehp buff)?

Also, when this thing creates the detrimental effects we are predicting (not just to people who like to pve in null sec, but to people affected by the ripple effect of fewer ships dying because people start pveing in high sec, like I already have) are you really that eager to have to waste time fixing it?

We offer our advice out of a desire to not only preserve some gameplay we think is currently ok, but also in hopes of preventing you guys wasting man hours that could be devoted to progessing the game's design.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#911 - 2014-01-16 01:26:45 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why isn't it a seeded BPO/BPC instead of buy it now item?


That is mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.

How can you expect me to be civil when reading **** like this?
Seriously. You need to stop developing for a while, pull your head out of your ass, actually see how people play the game, and then go back and decide what needs to be done.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Xolve
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#912 - 2014-01-16 01:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I agree that the ESS is a pointless item in general, but most of the people aren't complaining about the ESS, they're complaining about their income getting nerfed. We don't have the up-to-date metrics available to us to know if it is warranted.


Nerfing an income source that supports at MAX maybe 5 simultaneous users in a fully upgraded system with decent true sec (that an alliance is paying for) seems a bit strange when Level 4 missions can support an infinite number of pilots, with little to no risk.



Edit: For what it's worth I haven't shot a rat in well over 2 years (at least).
Tarikan
E.C.H.O.
Warped Intentions
#913 - 2014-01-16 01:28:59 UTC
This "Quick fix" is, to be blunt, irritating.

The changes to Faction Warfare made the PvE mechanics and farming a little more enjoyable, then you take a 180 degree turn on null-sec and not only lower the bounties, but also create a mobile structure that will hardly be used.

I'm irritated with what you consider a proper fix, there are a number of different options that you can do to lower your inflation problem and possibly increase enjoyment for nullbears as well as make it so new isk isn't created, but traded with players.

Meh. We can work together to try and create a more enjoyable fix...

I personally would enjoy the idea of lowering the null-sec NPC bounties but then rewarding LP.
Alim Omaristos
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#914 - 2014-01-16 01:30:03 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why isn't it a seeded BPO/BPC instead of buy it now item?


That is mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.

None of that changes what a stupid Item this is. Why not just lower the amount from bounties like a normal response to inflation would be. Why create literally a time sink. Honestly What are the CSMs opinions on this module? I can't imagine a worse item to be added to the game. Honestly if something this stupid comes into the game i'm Liable to unsub clearly the Devs are so out of touch with what to do with Eve any more it isn't even funny.

Disclaimer, I don't rat, i think it's awful and the isk hour just isn't worth it.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#915 - 2014-01-16 01:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Xolve wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I agree that the ESS is a pointless item in general, but most of the people aren't complaining about the ESS, they're complaining about their income getting nerfed. We don't have the up-to-date metrics available to us to know if it is warranted.


Nerfing an income source that supports at MAX maybe 5 simultaneous users in a fully upgraded system with decent true sec (that an alliance is paying for) seems a bit strange when Level 4 missions can support an infinite number of pilots, with little to no risk.

As has been stated repeatedly, missions come with an isk sink: the lp store. In order to get maximum isk/hour, you need to sink much of the raw isk you make from isk payouts into the lp store, taking that isk out of circulation. Then you sell the LP store items on the market to get your most isk/hr.

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be) the problem isn't that income in null is too high, the problem is that ISK coming out of null it too high. Those two are not the same thing, e.g.when you get a deadspace drop and sell it on the market, your income goes up, but you inject no isk into the market.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#916 - 2014-01-16 01:32:05 UTC
I just realised as well (give me a break I'm slow) if you install an ESS in a system it does NOTHING to lower ISK inflow into the game, it keeps it the same or improves it, all it's doing is changing whos hand that ISK goes into.

The tags printed are just going to Empire and being converted into ISK meaning with an ESS installed in a system you're just switching to another faucet which can be switched onto overdrive.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Raminather
Blood Ravens.
#917 - 2014-01-16 01:32:44 UTC
If CCP is concerned with ISK income in any part of eve the answer is to promote fighting and actual loss of isk. Ships being lost = higher prices for those ships ect less isk in game overall.. BUT to have the free market that isn't messed with that isk will go to someone and that will be the ppl with the blue prints and the materials to whatever is being used and lost. its a circle that ccp created more isk is coming into the circle daily so it is balling up faster now inflation ect.

So the real question is then what actual new content could you add that costs isk but does not add to this massive cycle? Sell Shirts for ISK or plex sell outside of game but with in game currency. Sell ship models ect. That will be the only way to truly get isk out of EVE. That wont happen though bc bussiness wise that would be a financial loss to there overhead but would actually make this game last longer than adding new content that doesn't work.

Whatever happens I already know that this game is getting to spread out with Dust, Valkyrie ect. and is losing its true focus which shows they are trying to make the most money before it implodes. Lack of actual new content that doesn't bring in new players but pushes out older ones will be the demise of this game.

My opinion, like it hate it but it is still mine
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#918 - 2014-01-16 01:36:19 UTC
Raminather wrote:
If CCP is concerned with ISK income in any part of eve the answer is to promote fighting and actual loss of isk. Ships being lost = higher prices for those ships ect less isk in game overall..


ships being killed doesnt remove isk from the game. In fact it adds isk through insurance.

the money you paid for the ship isnt removed, it is just transferred to those of us that build them.

what i dont get is..

this module is mean to reduce an isk faucet, ok.. fine.. but then don't go and say we will have 5% more income. that.. doesn't make any sense CCP.

Specially when your own economist doesn't agree with you.


Barry Kring
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#919 - 2014-01-16 01:37:46 UTC
"Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation."

-Cloversomething

Ah, ok, but then my dear friend you need to reduce hs income first so there is still a reason for people to be in null. Nobody wants to take on all that risk for no extra iskies.
Xolve
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#920 - 2014-01-16 01:39:00 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
As has been stated repeatedly, missions come with an isk sink: the lp store. In order to get maximum isk/hour, you need to sink much of the raw isk you make from isk payouts into the lp store, taking that isk out of circulation. Then you sell the LP store items on the market to get your most isk/hr.


Somebody, somewhere is paying for that Sov (and it costs quite a bit more than the paltry costs of a few lp store items); although my point was about the number of pilots engaging in an activity and not so much about how much money they can pull out of it at as near max efficiency as they can manage.