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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Author
Kaeda Maxwell
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#361 - 2014-01-07 21:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.


When out solo it will basically force you to dual box or pass up every fight opportunity in systems with MSI's, warping to them is almost certain death as they can hide bubbles (or fast locking hard tackle in lowsec). Engaging anything else in a system with any unknowns in local and one of these on scan without visually checking first is basically a dice roll.

And even when out with a gang all that forcing the need for a certain roles in fleet does, is take up human resources and raising the barrier to participation (while many of us will simply bring dual boxed link ships to fill the role, not everybody has access to that resource after all).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#362 - 2014-01-07 21:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.


When out solo it will basically force you to dual box or pass up every fight opportunity in systems with MSI's, warping to them is almost certain death as they can hide bubbles (or fast locking hard tackle in lowsec). Engaging anything else in a system with any unknowns in local and one of these on scan without visually checking first is basically a dice roll.

And even when out with a gang all that forcing the need for a certain roles in fleet does, is take up human resources and raising the barrier to participation (while many of us will simply bring dual boxed link ships to fill the role, not everybody has access to that resource after all).


But look at the time frame these are online for. 2 Hours... That means someone put that up recently, and with purpose. Engaging hostiles in a system with one of these up is little different than engaging hostiles in a system with other unscouted players (be they cloaked, docked in an inaccessible station, or hiding in a deep safe). Remember, players will still be in local and these only last two hours. If these are spammed around a system, then something is up. We'll learn pretty quickly who put these up and why. I'm really trying to understand why this will ruin solo PvP.

There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.
Cameron Freerunner
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#363 - 2014-01-07 21:53:40 UTC
Just a couple of thoughts:

As it currently stands with the latest scan and warp speed changes, the time it takes a hunter to enter a system, find a target, warp, and point is ridiculously low. Additionally, the warp changes have made warping away even harder for prey.

There seems to be a weird assumption that hunters should have it easy and prey should have it hard. All of the advice to prey who are doing anything besides PvP in a system is basically to warp or cloak when local spikes. And because that’s the only option available to prey, AFK cloakers can shut down a system. The MSI actually provides options that reduce the “power” of the AFK cloaker. He can’t just sit there and present a possible threat; he has to warp around to present an actual threat.

While I can understand some of the dismay over the upcoming "shell game," I don't see any inherent problems with making the hunter have to work more than 30 seconds to find and point prey. The shell game also has an easy counter: throwaway alts in shuttles. I’ve also not seen anyone propose the counter use of MSIs against a shell game. They have a whole bunch of MSIs placed? You setup a whole bunch of MSIs. Better yet, you get there first and you put MSIs on every anomaly. Hide and seek works both ways. I can think of lots of other ways to use these against other players who are using them and for other offensive purposes.

As for the suggestion that ships inside the MSI field not be able to d-scan, that’s absurd. The hunter has only a 30km bubble in the system that he can’t scan. The prey in that scenario would have an entire system he can’t scan. That’s not an equal tradeoff; especially since nothing prevents the hunter from scanning down the MSI or in any way prevents him from finding or engaging the prey.

Personally, I’m happy to see that a scout has to do more than enter local, read the local member list, and spam d-scan.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#364 - 2014-01-07 21:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts:

As it currently stands with the latest scan and warp speed changes, the time it takes a hunter to enter a system, find a target, warp, and point is ridiculously low. Additionally, the warp changes have made warping away even harder for prey.

There seems to be a weird assumption that hunters should have it easy and prey should have it hard. All of the advice to prey who are doing anything besides PvP in a system is basically to warp or cloak when local spikes. And because that’s the only option available to prey, AFK cloakers can shut down a system. The MSI actually provides options that reduce the “power” of the AFK cloaker. He can’t just sit there and present a possible threat; he has to warp around to present an actual threat.

While I can understand some of the dismay over the upcoming "shell game," I don't see any inherent problems with making the hunter have to work more than 30 seconds to find and point prey. The shell game also has an easy counter: throwaway alts in shuttles. I’ve also not seen anyone propose the counter use of MSIs against a shell game. They have a whole bunch of MSIs placed? You setup a whole bunch of MSIs. Better yet, you get there first and you put MSIs on every anomaly. Hide and seek works both ways. I can think of lots of other ways to use these against other players who are using them and for other offensive purposes.

As for the suggestion that ships inside the MSI field not be able to d-scan, that’s absurd. The hunter has only a 30km bubble in the system that he can’t scan. The prey in that scenario would have an entire system he can’t scan. That’s not an equal tradeoff; especially since nothing prevents the hunter from scanning down the MSI or in any way prevents him from finding or engaging the prey.

Personally, I’m happy to see that a scout has to do more than enter local, read the local member list, and spam d-scan.



There is a difference between making harder for the scout.. and making IMPOSSIBLE to catch anyone that is not afk.

THe changes are stupid when they make one side win 100% of time as long as that side is able to click 1 button.

Also usign D-Scan was already MUHC MUCH more complicated and eeded much more skill than ANYTHIGN That the "prey " needed to do..t hat was simply to watch local and itnel channels and stay aligned!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2014-01-07 22:00:27 UTC
Vivian Marcos wrote:
First off, the MSI modules looks frickin amazing! I love the skin of that little bugger!

I am quite looking forward to these modules, this will make scouts a lot more important and the need of actually good professional scouts. I have mixed feelings about this being used by larger corps to punish smaller corps, but once more It should inspire a different kind of scouting. However i am sorta advocating against them being in FW plexes.

You want to scout it with a triple stabbed MSE/MWD supper fast warping ship? Triple scram inty+smart bombing ship for dat pod! Might make alts in a non fitted frig to suicide in plexes to get the fleet comp as my good buddy just said on comms :)

Still that means that smaller groups could use them to mask their fleet against larger foes, the larger foes would have to suicide someone to get the comp as well... Double edged sword, benifits and hurts both parties the same hehehe i like it!

I would like to know if the MMJD works on ONLY fleet members of your fleet or eveyone in the radius? I assume the former but i would LOVE the latter :D



Completely NONSESNE! If you know your group is considerably larger that is when you dont give a **** for the MSI and warp your fleet direclty to it and balst the smaller group!


People simply have no clue how other players act in eve?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#366 - 2014-01-07 22:00:32 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts:

As it currently stands with the latest scan and warp speed changes, the time it takes a hunter to enter a system, find a target, warp, and point is ridiculously low. Additionally, the warp changes have made warping away even harder for prey.

There seems to be a weird assumption that hunters should have it easy and prey should have it hard. All of the advice to prey who are doing anything besides PvP in a system is basically to warp or cloak when local spikes. And because that’s the only option available to prey, AFK cloakers can shut down a system. The MSI actually provides options that reduce the “power” of the AFK cloaker. He can’t just sit there and present a possible threat; he has to warp around to present an actual threat.

While I can understand some of the dismay over the upcoming "shell game," I don't see any inherent problems with making the hunter have to work more than 30 seconds to find and point prey. The shell game also has an easy counter: throwaway alts in shuttles. I’ve also not seen anyone propose the counter use of MSIs against a shell game. They have a whole bunch of MSIs placed? You setup a whole bunch of MSIs. Better yet, you get there first and you put MSIs on every anomaly. Hide and seek works both ways. I can think of lots of other ways to use these against other players who are using them and for other offensive purposes.

As for the suggestion that ships inside the MSI field not be able to d-scan, that’s absurd. The hunter has only a 30km bubble in the system that he can’t scan. The prey in that scenario would have an entire system he can’t scan. That’s not an equal tradeoff; especially since nothing prevents the hunter from scanning down the MSI or in any way prevents him from finding or engaging the prey.

Personally, I’m happy to see that a scout has to do more than enter local, read the local member list, and spam d-scan.

What? I bet you any amount of ISK you would never catch me bearing it up in a system if you were not there already. I will be half way to warp initiation before you even press that directional scan button. That is fact.
mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2014-01-07 22:01:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would be curious to read some CSM members' takes on these new mechanisms.
I would think that some of them would have VERY strong opinions about them.


Sorry I'm a bit off my game lately, can you please inform me what strong opinion lead financier of the nullsec cartel is supposed to have on them so that I may adopt it? Thanks.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#368 - 2014-01-07 22:01:44 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.


When out solo it will basically force you to dual box or pass up every fight opportunity in systems with MSI's, warping to them is almost certain death as they can hide bubbles (or fast locking hard tackle in lowsec). Engaging anything else in a system with any unknowns in local and one of these on scan without visually checking first is basically a dice roll.

And even when out with a gang all that forcing the need for a certain roles in fleet does, is take up human resources and raising the barrier to participation (while many of us will simply bring dual boxed link ships to fill the role, not everybody has access to that resource after all).


But look at the time frame these are online for. 2 Hours... That means someone put that up recently, and with purpose. Engaging hostiles in a system with one of these up is little different than engaging hostiles in a system with other unscouted players (be they cloaked, docked in an inaccessible station, or hiding in a deep safe). Remember, players will still be in local and these only last two hours. If these are spammed around a system, then something is up. We'll learn pretty quickly who put these up and why. I'm really trying to understand why this will ruin solo PvP.

There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.


I think you're dramatically underestimating the effect that these will have on wormholes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#369 - 2014-01-07 22:03:46 UTC

Increase the build cost to say... 20m isk instead of 5m isk. They won't be spammed in Anomalies, because they cost as much as you earn in the anomaly, and they are single use objects.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2014-01-07 22:05:57 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
[quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.



There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.



When I solo I will often pick a point in deep null that I haven't necessarily been to before, it's just somewhere that has quite a bit of activity (players in system, rats killed, whatever). What you are essentially saying is that before roaming somewhere I should scout it well in advance in a nullified T3?

The fact that I am competent at using D-Scan suddenly becomes useless, I may as well not even have the window open for all the good it will do me if these are released.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#371 - 2014-01-07 22:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.

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Frozen fanfiction

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#372 - 2014-01-07 22:10:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.


When out solo it will basically force you to dual box or pass up every fight opportunity in systems with MSI's, warping to them is almost certain death as they can hide bubbles (or fast locking hard tackle in lowsec). Engaging anything else in a system with any unknowns in local and one of these on scan without visually checking first is basically a dice roll.

And even when out with a gang all that forcing the need for a certain roles in fleet does, is take up human resources and raising the barrier to participation (while many of us will simply bring dual boxed link ships to fill the role, not everybody has access to that resource after all).


But look at the time frame these are online for. 2 Hours... That means someone put that up recently, and with purpose. Engaging hostiles in a system with one of these up is little different than engaging hostiles in a system with other unscouted players (be they cloaked, docked in an inaccessible station, or hiding in a deep safe). Remember, players will still be in local and these only last two hours. If these are spammed around a system, then something is up. We'll learn pretty quickly who put these up and why. I'm really trying to understand why this will ruin solo PvP.

There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.


I think you're dramatically underestimating the effect that these will have on wormholes.

-Liang


Here here. The cost to put up a number of these with bubbles in to give you time to GTFO or prepare support is NOTHING compared to the isk you get running cap escalations. And this is coming from the point of view of someone who does them, I don't think we need additional security.

Hell, we got a great fight last week from someone warping in on our site to try and kill us. And we kicked their asses. That kind of thing creates content for both sides, and having someone fill their system with even ten of these things will mean ballache and lack of actual fights.

And did someone seriously suggest throwaway alts in shuttles? Really? absolutely requiring somebody to pay for and bring along additional characters in order to find a fight is stupid. Some people can't or don't want to play that way.

This is going to end up requiring either suicide or nulli, cloaky T3s to gather intel. Which is not a good position to force people into.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#373 - 2014-01-07 22:11:17 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:


The Scan Inhibitor is paradigm shifting, and not in a good way. This thing is going to do nothing but promote even more blob warfare, and make already cautious or risk averse players even moreso. This particular flavor of one-way intel is, frankly, bullshit. The only way that these things could be remotely considered balanced is if the inhibitor effect was applied to any ships inside the AOE, rendering their d-scan useless, and preventing their ability to target when within the module's 'field,' just as when one is inside a POS forcefield.



A cloaked ship can't be dscanned, but can still dscan.
The MSI is a stationary object that you can easily identify and know that forces may be hiding there. This is hardly game breaking. Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.

The sky is not falling with the introduction of this item. Instead, new tactical possibilities are opening up.


A cloaked ship also can't do anything while it's cloaked, with the exception of warp away if it falls under the covops domain. Ships inside the AOE field of this thing retain all of their functionality. They retain perfect intel via Local and d-scan, while those outside of the AOE field lose that capability.

They sky is certainly not falling; it's just begun to rain even more ****.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#374 - 2014-01-07 22:11:41 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.


Oh my god that is utterly ridiculous.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2014-01-07 22:13:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.




So it's going to break exploration as well? Congratulations CCP, I think this is probably your biggest fuckup since WiS
Atomic Option
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2014-01-07 22:16:44 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
I believe that in the current iteration, the scan disruptor provides too great a margin of safety for PvE fleets in C5/C6 W-Space; Just anchor a few dozen of these around your system before rolling out the PvE capital fleet, and by the time any hostiles roll into your system and have correctly identified which site you're in, all assets will have gotten off the field.

If by 'easy to scan down' you mean that a 16 or 32-AU scan will resolve them in a single cycle, that might be tolerable, but likely still tilts the advantage too much towards the defender.


Maybe. But if you're running capital escalations in a C5/C6 without closing/mass-critting your exits first, you're not going to last long in WH space anyway.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#377 - 2014-01-07 22:19:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I think you're dramatically underestimating the effect that these will have on wormholes.

-Liang


To be honest, I do not consider myself a regular WH'er, so I may not have the relevant experience.

I would think these can be deployed a little too close to a tower (40 km's means you can have a large portion of assets within the force field hidden from scan. Outside of this, what is truly changing?

How do you envision these breaking WH activity?

Someone obfuscates their WH Farming fleet -- So you warp a covops to the site and see what's there? That takes what, maybe an extra 45 seconds? Capitals will be sieged/tTriaged, so it won't change your ability to hit them by much. And wrecks sure as hell aren't going to be within the nice 30 km's coverage area, so pinpointing where they are at won't be hard at all!

Next, you could obfuscate the size of a force entering a WH by deploying these ahead of time -- So what.... anyone in an inty or T3 can get eyes on them easily.

Next, you could have a trap setup in the WH with a bunch of ships hidden by these -- Well gee... I see a MSI on scan... what moron wouldn't investigate such a thing, seeing as it is put up to hide ships at that location, and had to be done recently. These things can be reconned so easily that players will generally stay logged off rather than risk giving intel to the enemy about your readiness.

What am I missing, because none of these are, "OMG the sky is falling scenarios!".



James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2014-01-07 22:20:55 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH GOD

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#379 - 2014-01-07 22:21:16 UTC
Atomic Option wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
I believe that in the current iteration, the scan disruptor provides too great a margin of safety for PvE fleets in C5/C6 W-Space; Just anchor a few dozen of these around your system before rolling out the PvE capital fleet, and by the time any hostiles roll into your system and have correctly identified which site you're in, all assets will have gotten off the field.

If by 'easy to scan down' you mean that a 16 or 32-AU scan will resolve them in a single cycle, that might be tolerable, but likely still tilts the advantage too much towards the defender.


Maybe. But if you're running capital escalations in a C5/C6 without closing/mass-critting your exits first, you're not going to last long in WH space anyway.


There is still a risk (if you aren't watching carefully enough for sigs), which is really the only thing making the amounts of isk you can make fair, and that can definitely be exploited with skill. Except now someone trying to get a warpin might have a hell of an uphill struggle to find them and get tackle.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#380 - 2014-01-07 22:23:17 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts:

As it currently stands with the latest scan and warp speed changes, the time it takes a hunter to enter a system, find a target, warp, and point is ridiculously low. Additionally, the warp changes have made warping away even harder for prey.

There seems to be a weird assumption that hunters should have it easy and prey should have it hard. All of the advice to prey who are doing anything besides PvP in a system is basically to warp or cloak when local spikes. And because that’s the only option available to prey, AFK cloakers can shut down a system. The MSI actually provides options that reduce the “power” of the AFK cloaker. He can’t just sit there and present a possible threat; he has to warp around to present an actual threat.

While I can understand some of the dismay over the upcoming "shell game," I don't see any inherent problems with making the hunter have to work more than 30 seconds to find and point prey. The shell game also has an easy counter: throwaway alts in shuttles. I’ve also not seen anyone propose the counter use of MSIs against a shell game. They have a whole bunch of MSIs placed? You setup a whole bunch of MSIs. Better yet, you get there first and you put MSIs on every anomaly. Hide and seek works both ways. I can think of lots of other ways to use these against other players who are using them and for other offensive purposes.

As for the suggestion that ships inside the MSI field not be able to d-scan, that’s absurd. The hunter has only a 30km bubble in the system that he can’t scan. The prey in that scenario would have an entire system he can’t scan. That’s not an equal tradeoff; especially since nothing prevents the hunter from scanning down the MSI or in any way prevents him from finding or engaging the prey.

Personally, I’m happy to see that a scout has to do more than enter local, read the local member list, and spam d-scan.


well said. It is about time this game stopped being so easy for aggressors.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049