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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#381 - 2014-01-07 22:24:26 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts:

As it currently stands with the latest scan and warp speed changes, the time it takes a hunter to enter a system, find a target, warp, and point is ridiculously low. Additionally, the warp changes have made warping away even harder for prey.

There seems to be a weird assumption that hunters should have it easy and prey should have it hard. All of the advice to prey who are doing anything besides PvP in a system is basically to warp or cloak when local spikes. And because that’s the only option available to prey, AFK cloakers can shut down a system. The MSI actually provides options that reduce the “power” of the AFK cloaker. He can’t just sit there and present a possible threat; he has to warp around to present an actual threat.

While I can understand some of the dismay over the upcoming "shell game," I don't see any inherent problems with making the hunter have to work more than 30 seconds to find and point prey. The shell game also has an easy counter: throwaway alts in shuttles. I’ve also not seen anyone propose the counter use of MSIs against a shell game. They have a whole bunch of MSIs placed? You setup a whole bunch of MSIs. Better yet, you get there first and you put MSIs on every anomaly. Hide and seek works both ways. I can think of lots of other ways to use these against other players who are using them and for other offensive purposes.

As for the suggestion that ships inside the MSI field not be able to d-scan, that’s absurd. The hunter has only a 30km bubble in the system that he can’t scan. The prey in that scenario would have an entire system he can’t scan. That’s not an equal tradeoff; especially since nothing prevents the hunter from scanning down the MSI or in any way prevents him from finding or engaging the prey.

Personally, I’m happy to see that a scout has to do more than enter local, read the local member list, and spam d-scan.


well said. It is about time this game stopped being so easy for aggressors.



I'm sure wormholers are going to have a great amount of success reading local to see who's in the system...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#382 - 2014-01-07 22:24:34 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
[quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.



There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.



When I solo I will often pick a point in deep null that I haven't necessarily been to before, it's just somewhere that has quite a bit of activity (players in system, rats killed, whatever). What you are essentially saying is that before roaming somewhere I should scout it well in advance in a nullified T3?

The fact that I am competent at using D-Scan suddenly becomes useless, I may as well not even have the window open for all the good it will do me if these are released.


If you are hunting, it means your prey could potentially setup a trap for you, assuming you rashly warp into an anomaly with one of these on scan. Their price & size is prohibitive enough to prevent endless spamming of these, so it is not likely to be there unless a trap is being laid.

If you are worried about escaping, These things DONT COVER GATES. 75 km's - 40 km's means any body "hidden" by an MSI is at least 30 km's off a gate. Don't warp gate to gate when you see this on scan, and bounce off an unaligned celestial.

I'm saying you need to use your head, and these things won't inhibit you at all!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2014-01-07 22:24:50 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would be curious to read some CSM members' takes on these new mechanisms.
I would think that some of them would have VERY strong opinions about them.


Sorry I'm a bit off my game lately, can you please inform me what strong opinion lead financier of the nullsec cartel is supposed to have on them so that I may adopt it? Thanks.

Okay. What if Dinsdale weren't the one asking the question? Because that's something I was wondering myself. Were you consulted? What was your input?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2014-01-07 22:26:41 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
well said. It is about time this game stopped being so easy for aggressors.

What game have you been playing?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#385 - 2014-01-07 22:27:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH GOD


Exactly.

We see how much thought went into this mechanic before it was released to SiSi.

I eagerly await tomorrow's post by Fozzie telling us that they're taking long and detailed notes about our concerns.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#386 - 2014-01-07 22:29:49 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.


My understanding this is because the MSI is currently buggy, and not the intended mechanic. If indeed you can prevent WH's from being scanned down, or if you can hide your anomaly with one of these, then they their balance needs to be more closely examined.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#387 - 2014-01-07 22:30:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Don't warp gate to gate when you see this on scan, and bounce off an unaligned celestial.


I hope that you gate campers are taking notes. Make sure that when you set this up, it's on narrow scan from the gate, but the inhibitor and the hidden bubble inside are aligned to the 'unaligned' celestial.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#388 - 2014-01-07 22:31:16 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
that they're taking long and detailed notes about our concerns.

You mean that they're enjoying the "lively discussion" and "controversy" and will release it as-is regardless just to see what happens, right?

:effort:

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cameron Freerunner
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#389 - 2014-01-07 22:31:17 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
What? I bet you any amount of ISK you would never catch me bearing it up in a system if you were not there already. I will be half way to warp initiation before you even press that directional scan button. That is fact.

You're validating my point: if you don't warp away shortly after I enter the system, I will catch you. And even if you make it off grid, I can cloak up and wait. Then you're done with whatever you were doing until I leave. If you had a couple of MSIs out or you and your buddies each had one while you run separate sites, I have a problem I have to solve before I can catch anyone. If you're clever about MSI use and have the capability (like, say, a mobile fitting unit), you have the option and the time to either hunt me in turn or run sites in a clever manner. If you were using MSIs and just had low SP alts docked in system, I would have to make a lot more decisions about how or whether to engage.

PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#390 - 2014-01-07 22:32:19 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
that they're taking long and detailed notes about our concerns.

You mean that they're enjoying the "lively discussion" and "controversy" and will release it as-is regardless just to see what happens, right?

:effort:


Pretty much.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#391 - 2014-01-07 22:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Randy Wray
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Don't warp gate to gate when you see this on scan, and bounce off an unaligned celestial.


I hope that you gate campers are taking notes. Make sure that when you set this up, it's on narrow scan from the gate, but the inhibitor and the hidden bubble inside are aligned to the 'unaligned' celestial.

Just anchor a couple of large bubbles inside the inhibitor field and you're fine.

This basically just made sure that if I'm going to nullsec roaming I'm bringing an interceptor.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray

Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#392 - 2014-01-07 22:35:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH GOD


goon tears best tearsSmileyummy!

Come prepared into wormholes and you won't have any problems. Don't be angry just because the game got a little more challenging for aggressors. This is about balance. For far too long EVE has been a game where aggressors had all the power. Maybe now being a successful EVE pirate will actually mean something. Bear

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#393 - 2014-01-07 22:36:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.


My understanding this is because the MSI is currently buggy, and not the intended mechanic. If indeed you can prevent WH's from being scanned down, or if you can hide your anomaly with one of these, then they their balance needs to be more closely examined.

It cannot hide an anomaly as those still show on the scanner, and that is all that's needed to warp to one. But even though a sig will still show on a scanner, you cannot warp to it without probing it out. Once an MSI is dropped on the sig that cannot be done. I tested this on a combat site and a wormhole. You see the map with your probes nicely covering the red sphere and above it the words "No scan signature detected". Even if you previously scanned out said sig and are floating right beside it.

I would not be surprised to see this declared a bug and changed.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#394 - 2014-01-07 22:40:12 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Don't warp gate to gate when you see this on scan, and bounce off an unaligned celestial.


I hope that you gate campers are taking notes. Make sure that when you set this up, it's on narrow scan from the gate, but the inhibitor and the hidden bubble inside are aligned to the 'unaligned' celestial.

Just anchor a couple of large bubbles inside the inhibitor field and you're fine.

This basically just made sure that if I'm going to nullsec roaming I'm bringing an interceptor.


lol.... and all your hard work will be negated by the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area. It is not hard to bypass most gate camps, and this does nothing to change that difficulty. It only alters whether there you know there is a gate camp there from dscanning. FYI: There are many camped gates that don't have any celestials nearby for you to use dscan on them anyway, meaning little changes in this regard!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#395 - 2014-01-07 22:42:39 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.

I found a wormhole to nullsec once, and that system had an 8/10 plex in it. Never having been on the PvE side of the issue, I decided to see what this whole "gankers are going to ruin your day" thing is really all about. So I fit up my Abaddon for PvE and went to run it.

Turns out that gankers will come ruin your day, but without needing any of the fancy Rubicon modules that make everything much easier, the day ended with a Navy Omen, Deimos, two Zealots, and a Pilgrim killed, and my Abaddon still alive, with its site completed. Of course, the attackers weren't all together, and being able to kill them all was a combination of luck, preparation and skill, but even if I had not managed to kill any of them, the completion of my site and safety of my Abaddon were never in question.

It turns out that with some foresight and preparation, you can safely engage in only fights you want to engage in. The ganker has little to no control.

Had I had access to mobile depots, mobile micro jump units, and mobile sensor inhibitors, much of that fighting would simply not have happened -- especially if I were more risk-averse about welping an Abaddon. Is this the sort of effect we want from "omg wow shiny new" mechanics introduced with no reasoning or niche other than "it's cool"?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#396 - 2014-01-07 22:43:15 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#397 - 2014-01-07 22:44:28 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
that they're taking long and detailed notes about our concerns.

You mean that they're enjoying the "lively discussion" and "controversy" and will release it as-is regardless just to see what happens, right?

:effort:


Pretty much.

Oh right, I forgot: "We will certainly look at its effects and iterate Soon™"

That's an essential part of receiving and valuing negative player feedback on features that are already forgone conclusions.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#398 - 2014-01-07 22:45:09 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.


We might as well remove warping to zero while we're at it...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2014-01-07 22:47:11 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
By the way, the MSI hides cosmic signatures...sort of. The sig still shows on the scanner. It shows as a red sphere in the solar system map. But scan probes cannot see a sig near a MSI. Drop one on a wormhole and that wormhole cannot be scanned out.

Of course if they have an expanded probe launcher and combat probes they can find the MSI, warp to it and find the wormhole. If they got that equipment and are willing to do it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH GOD


goon tears best tearsSmileyummy!

Come prepared into wormholes and you won't have any problems. Don't be angry just because the game got a little more challenging for aggressors. This is about balance. For far too long EVE has been a game where aggressors had all the power. Maybe now being a successful EVE pirate will actually mean something. Bear

I don't think I need to explain why this post is stupid.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#400 - 2014-01-07 22:51:03 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.


We might as well remove warping to zero while we're at it...


Might as well. CCP keeps clamoring for newb-friendly income sources. I hear that selling cans of warp-to-zero bookmarks was quite lucrative for newbies back in the day.