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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1141 - 2013-12-22 08:29:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Also CCP's figures have shown that inflation on most items has been directly tied to the mineral market and the changes they have made to mineral availability & requirements for BPO's, not the overall isk on the market. Only a few items break that mould which doesn't make for overall market inflation as a result.


The runaway inflation only stopped when CCP nerfed incursions hard.


The 'runaway inflation' only existed in your mind. Possibly it was having impact on the plex market also. But not on general day to day items most pilots need.
Same as the null income being lower is only in your mind.


The price of everything doubled in the span of six months after incursions were added. CCP even stated that they were going to nerf level 4s if the high inflation didn't stop after the incursion nerf and anoms saw two nerfs.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1142 - 2013-12-22 08:38:39 UTC
Yet it was subsequently shown that the prices doubling was due to changes on the mineral market directly, which still left miners as one of the lowest paid occupations in EVE despite the fact miners make the world go around.
And half the ships on the market currently sell at UNDER cost to manufacture price.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1143 - 2013-12-22 08:45:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Yet it was subsequently shown that the prices doubling was due to changes on the mineral market directly, which still left miners as one of the lowest paid occupations in EVE despite the fact miners make the world go around.
And half the ships on the market currently sell at UNDER cost to manufacture price.



It was CCP themselves that said that incursions were being nefed to stop the crippling inflation. Or are you now saying that you know better than the people who run this game?

The mineral prices went up because of the flood of isk which pushed everything else up. The reason why some ships were selling under the build cost is because CCP changed the mineral needs of these ship and the prices could only catch up after all of the old stock had been sold. These mineral changes came in after CCP nerfed incursions and anoms to deal with the isk inflation.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1144 - 2013-12-22 08:58:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
...
The mineral prices went up because of the flood of isk which pushed everything else up. The reason why some ships were selling under the build cost is because CCP changed the mineral needs of these ship and the prices could only catch up after all of the old stock had been sold. These mineral changes came in after CCP nerfed incursions and anoms to deal with the isk inflation.


Now i'm no friend to Goons, i have to say. But the stuff they're posting here all looks insightful and credible. Particularly the above.
It really is relevant to the way Eve is going to work, since the economy could possibly allow the accumulation corner of the accumulation-creation-destruction triangle to completely flop over.
Honestly i'm amazed sometimes how this market keeps running, since it could clog at any time with stuff or isk and just halt.
It seems to me there is a shortage of destruction sometimes, a shortage it would hurt nobody to change.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1145 - 2013-12-22 09:04:39 UTC
Other than the small aspect that miners are still paid sweat shop wages in EVE. So saying 'Runaway inflation' when they went from dirt poor to still dirt poor levels of income really isn't true. And the drone poo nerf/gun mining nerf had a much bigger impact on the minerals market than any incursion income ever did. If you can even separate them, the market certainly showed no signs of the incursion income changes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1146 - 2013-12-22 09:34:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Other than the small aspect that miners are still paid sweat shop wages in EVE. So saying 'Runaway inflation' when they went from dirt poor to still dirt poor levels of income really isn't true. And the drone poo nerf/gun mining nerf had a much bigger impact on the minerals market than any incursion income ever did. If you can even separate them, the market certainly showed no signs of the incursion income changes.



As someone who was building at the time I can tell you that everything I produced doubled in price after incursions arrived. In my 7-8 years I have never seen a steeper rise in isk inflation.

The problem was this:

The incursions were farmable and very profitable so they were injecting a huge amount of isk into the system. This meant that people had a lot more isk to buy things with so that resulted in rising prices as sellers could charge more, the extra profits meant they could buy more raw materials so the materials rose in price. The result?

Miners ended up making twice as much on their minerals but since everything else cost twice as much their real income stayed the same.

The tech nerf did nothing to inflation and it was injecting no isk. Titan ratting also did not have much of an impact as few people owned a titan and fewer still were willing to go ratting in one.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1147 - 2013-12-22 09:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Chopper Rollins wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
...
The mineral prices went up because of the flood of isk which pushed everything else up. The reason why some ships were selling under the build cost is because CCP changed the mineral needs of these ship and the prices could only catch up after all of the old stock had been sold. These mineral changes came in after CCP nerfed incursions and anoms to deal with the isk inflation.

Now i'm no friend to Goons, i have to say. But the stuff they're posting here all looks insightful and credible. Particularly the above.
It really is relevant to the way Eve is going to work, since the economy could possibly allow the accumulation corner of the accumulation-creation-destruction triangle to completely flop over.
Honestly i'm amazed sometimes how this market keeps running, since it could clog at any time with stuff or isk and just halt.
It seems to me there is a shortage of destruction sometimes, a shortage it would hurt nobody to change.

Mittani alt, clearly.


Though it is nice that when I buy procurers, it costs only 10mil each instead of the 20mil it would cost to produce a new one, all due to the goodness knows how many tens of thousands made before the relevant tiercide patch. Not that I've lost any procurers, heh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1148 - 2013-12-22 10:53:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Other than the small aspect that miners are still paid sweat shop wages in EVE. So saying 'Runaway inflation' when they went from dirt poor to still dirt poor levels of income really isn't true. And the drone poo nerf/gun mining nerf had a much bigger impact on the minerals market than any incursion income ever did. If you can even separate them, the market certainly showed no signs of the incursion income changes.


Stuff about the incursions changing prices etc has been adressed, so i just have to say: Highsec, Mining, Wealth...choose two.
I mined up stupid amounts of crokite, spodumain and arkonor in between roams and attempted ganks for 6 months in null. Never been a hardcore miner but i've always enjoyed it since day one. The list of ships my hulk avoided dying to is something i'm proud of.
OK i don't have numbers but when it was time to move i remember firesaling 100m worth of croke for 100 isk to a bro heavy into building. I had so much high end minerals it was redonkulous. Solo mining, by the way, interrupted by all the pvp you could shake a stick at.
If someone mines for the money, he must leave empire or admit to a really queasy form of masochism. OK you can be casual and just snork up a few belts with your corpies, but don't ever mention to me your issues with gankers, low income or wardecs, these are things you can leave behind in a week. You don't have to be leet or awesome to do it either.

TL:DR; Sweatshop wages? 90% of roids in Eve never get troubled by miners.





Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Corez Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#1149 - 2013-12-22 11:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Corez Fumimasa
Rumtin wrote:

...As a member of LAWN living in Delve, I can't just go ratting in Dekklin whenever I feel like it, there's consequences. I have to remain in LAWN operating areas. As a member of the CFC, I thought you would have known this.


The whole point of the thread is that renting is obsolete. Gypsy raiding is the new orange.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1150 - 2013-12-22 12:21:56 UTC
Corez Fumimasa wrote:
Rumtin wrote:

...As a member of LAWN living in Delve, I can't just go ratting in Dekklin whenever I feel like it, there's consequences. I have to remain in LAWN operating areas. As a member of the CFC, I thought you would have known this.


The whole point of the thread is that renting is obsolete. Gypsy raiding is the new orange.


The mobile depot is a pretty good tool for that for sure. Makes doing escalations in hostile space a lot easier too so it helps all sorts.
Ron Corinth
The Corinth Clan
#1151 - 2013-12-22 15:22:26 UTC
At the risk of repeating what some of my esteemed fellow capsuleers have already stated, here is the skinny on what you're asking:

Null sec - Riches in the form of singular drops and rewards for site completions
High sec - Riches in the form of consistent low yield L4 missions

Null sec - A single loss can set you back days in terms of return on investment depending on the ship and including a pod
High sec - Biggest threat is a suicide gank, beyond that, no real risk of loss

So in the end, if you can swing the null sec side without getting torched, you will make more isk. If you get torched in null, and you fly anything remotely of value, it's a slower but far more likely yield in high sec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1152 - 2013-12-22 15:28:06 UTC
Ron Corinth wrote:
At the risk of repeating what some of my esteemed fellow capsuleers have already stated, here is the skinny on what you're asking:

Null sec - Riches in the form of singular drops and rewards for site completions
High sec - Riches in the form of consistent low yield L4 missions

Null sec - A single loss can set you back days in terms of return on investment depending on the ship and including a pod
High sec - Biggest threat is a suicide gank, beyond that, no real risk of loss

So in the end, if you can swing the null sec side without getting torched, you will make more isk. If you get torched in null, and you fly anything remotely of value, it's a slower but far more likely yield in high sec.


When it comes to anoms you will make more in high sec.

Sigs offer the chance of a good payday but most of the time you land something from tags to an 80 mil mod, the billion+ payouts are rare. It is also impossible to support more than 100-150 people per region on them.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1153 - 2013-12-22 16:24:19 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
There is major flaw in your 1 billion / hour calculation: you forgot to include billions in lost ships and hundreds of hours you've spent to gain knowledge of null.



I have to object to this one. I've wandered around all of eve at some point or another, and the only reason my total ship losses are over a billion isk is I once lost a POS in highsec. (I'd tell you about that stupidity, but we're not allowed to discuss GM decisions, petitions, or bugs)

As long as one takes sensible precautions, null is no more dangerous than high. I can't easily count the number of mental midgets who don't fit a warp stab. Or a covert if the ship can fit them.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1154 - 2013-12-22 17:16:42 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Lipbite wrote:
There is major flaw in your 1 billion / hour calculation: you forgot to include billions in lost ships and hundreds of hours you've spent to gain knowledge of null.



I have to object to this one. I've wandered around all of eve at some point or another, and the only reason my total ship losses are over a billion isk is I once lost a POS in highsec. (I'd tell you about that stupidity, but we're not allowed to discuss GM decisions, petitions, or bugs)

As long as one takes sensible precautions, null is no more dangerous than high. I can't easily count the number of mental midgets who don't fit a warp stab. Or a covert if the ship can fit them.

Ah yes harry forever and his warp stabs

of course he wasn't using a nullified ship so it resulted in a lossmail

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1155 - 2013-12-22 17:19:10 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Ah yes harry forever and his warp stabs

of course he wasn't using a nullified ship so it resulted in a lossmail


Impossible, nothing can stop the scourge of VFK.
Hinata' Hyuga
WillPower and Courage Corporation
#1156 - 2013-12-22 19:22:38 UTC
When I took a sabbatical from this game 2 months ago, this comment was new. Some things never change.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1157 - 2013-12-22 19:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
When it comes to anoms you will make more in high sec.


No, you don't. Fantasy land, again? Roll

Nullsec ones are worth more, and offer more isk/hour

baltec1 wrote:
Sigs offer the chance of a good payday but most of the time you land something from tags to an 80 mil mod, the billion+ payouts are rare.


And how long does it take you to get the tags and an 80 mil mod?

Perhaps you are just unskilled, or use bad fits, or are a horribly inefficient player. Perhaps you are all three.

baltec1 wrote:
It is also impossible to support more than 100-150 people per region on them.


Untrue, and even if it was true, completely irrelevant, as null is hilariously far away from saturation.

If null was a crowded place, I could see this being relevant. Considering null is pretty much dead empty, it's irrelevant. Not complicated.
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#1158 - 2013-12-22 19:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
The Maze? LMAO!!!!

The maze has 12 gates in the first room. Only ONE of the 12 leads to the next room.
The next room has 12 gates AGAIN! Make sure to leave breadcrumbs.
Room 3 has 4 gates. Phew only FOUR to check.
Room 4 has two gates 50/50, oh and make sure you remember all the other gates where you left breadcrumbs.
Room 5

Initial Spawn (if you can tank this the rest is pretty easy):

~18 Dire frigates
~5 destroyer
5 Cruiser
10 battleships
4 Stasis Webificiation Tower
8 Cruise Missile Batteries
First Spawn (happens after attacking the station):

4 Battleships
Second Spawn (happens at roughly half shields):

5 Elite Frigates
4 Elite Cruisers
Third Spawn (happens at roughly half armor):

5 Elite Cruisers
8-10 Cruisers
Fourth Spawn (happens at two thirds structure):

5 Elite Cruisers
6 Battleships
Fifth Spawn (happens at one third structure):

8 Elite Frigates
8 Battleships


Easy!

Best troll ever man.

Thanks I think I have a better chance of earning faction gear running FW with a condor in lowsec.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1159 - 2013-12-22 20:16:48 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
The Maze? LMAO!!!!

The maze has 12 gates in the first room. Only ONE of the 12 leads to the next room.
The next room has 12 gates AGAIN! Make sure to leave breadcrumbs.
Room 3 has 4 gates. Phew only FOUR to check.
Room 4 has two gates 50/50, oh and make sure you remember all the other gates where you left breadcrumbs.
Room 5

Initial Spawn (if you can tank this the rest is pretty easy):

~18 Dire frigates
~5 destroyer
5 Cruiser
10 battleships
4 Stasis Webificiation Tower
8 Cruise Missile Batteries
First Spawn (happens after attacking the station):

4 Battleships
Second Spawn (happens at roughly half shields):

5 Elite Frigates
4 Elite Cruisers
Third Spawn (happens at roughly half armor):

5 Elite Cruisers
8-10 Cruisers
Fourth Spawn (happens at two thirds structure):

5 Elite Cruisers
6 Battleships
Fifth Spawn (happens at one third structure):

8 Elite Frigates
8 Battleships


Easy!

Best troll ever man.

Thanks I think I have a better chance of earning faction gear running FW with a condor in lowsec.

... hmm, I see.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1160 - 2013-12-22 20:24:31 UTC
Can someone get an awesome drop from the maze and screenshot it, saying how uberfast you obtained it on your first run in nullsec?

Or just look up the loot table and buy the stuff in Jita and screenshot, tia

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?