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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

First post First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1181 - 2013-12-23 16:56:03 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Just because he is doing it different from you doesnt mean its wrong.
'

No it doesn't, doing pirate faction missions and making 40-50 mil an hour means it's "wrong" lol. Wrong in this case means "terribly inefficient if your purpose is to make isk" (if his purpose is otherwise, good for him).

I'm helping him understand why. My high sec mission runner character doesn't have a lot of lvl 5 skills either (don't need it to fly a mach, the hardest thing was getting the tech2 guns, when that toon flys a Domi, it's with faction sentries, can't use tech2) but it's easy to pull more than 40-50 mil an hour from SOE missions even with a tech1 sentry domi (which is what I used while training that character for the mach for missions and incursions).
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1182 - 2013-12-23 16:58:04 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
well, i've been blitzing these SoE missions for a few days now and the income is average at best, maybe 40-50M an hour. still decent for high sec but i just can't stomach running them constantly because they're phenomenally dull..

And the average guy out in null makes about 60 Mil/hr blitzing anoms in an Ishtar. So on average the potential income is pretty close between Highsec and Null. You even go on later in this thread and state that you aren't even fully trained up in all the skills that would put out more DPS with your setup, so the income would be even closer than what you have now. That isn't even counting the income from running Highsec Incursions.

Skeln Thargensen wrote:
on the other hand, i can just log in, demand mission, run mission, profit. die in a fire with the proceeds. suit me.

Here is where we have the problem, you can not lose access to your mission agents, (unless you have an unfortunate accident with overview, safety system, and a severe case of the dumb all at the same time.) Meanwhile as you make marginally less income blitzing your boring missions, we, on the other hand, can lose "access" to our anomalies, either by some hostile gang wandering around our space, or by getting kicked out with an invasion. We can't make money when hostiles are around, but you can still log in and run your missions till downtime if you so chose to. All this does is narow even further the gap in income between highsec and null. Before you say; form a gang and kick the hostile gang out, I have to say why? Why give them what they want? They are looking for kills, or a fight. If we give them that, that only encourages them to come back, if we don't give them what they are looking for they will go somewhere else to find it.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1183 - 2013-12-23 16:58:35 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
You just need to blitz, not clear. Also, Vargur FTW.


where possible, of course. if you're picky with missions and know them well you can maximise blitz potential. I'm getting better at this but sometimes i just want to kill everything so i don't have to read another damn mission report.

forums.  serious business.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1184 - 2013-12-23 17:14:56 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
well, i've been blitzing these SoE missions for a few days now and the income is average at best, maybe 40-50M an hour. still decent for high sec but i just can't stomach running them constantly because they're phenomenally dull..

And the average guy out in null makes about 60 Mil/hr blitzing anoms in an Ishtar. So on average the potential income is pretty close between Highsec and Null. You even go on later in this thread and state that you aren't even fully trained up in all the skills that would put out more DPS with your setup, so the income would be even closer than what you have now. That isn't even counting the income from running Highsec Incursions.

Skeln Thargensen wrote:
on the other hand, i can just log in, demand mission, run mission, profit. die in a fire with the proceeds. suit me.

Here is where we have the problem, you can not lose access to your mission agents, (unless you have an unfortunate accident with overview, safety system, and a severe case of the dumb all at the same time.) Meanwhile as you make marginally less income blitzing your boring missions, we, on the other hand, can lose "access" to our anomalies, either by some hostile gang wandering around our space, or by getting kicked out with an invasion. We can't make money when hostiles are around, but you can still log in and run your missions till downtime if you so chose to. All this does is narow even further the gap in income between highsec and null. Before you say; form a gang and kick the hostile gang out, I have to say why? Why give them what they want? They are looking for kills, or a fight. If we give them that, that only encourages them to come back, if we don't give them what they are looking for they will go somewhere else to find it.


well, run missions in highsec then. i can't even dock in your space, you're good in high sec as long as you keep an eye on local. I thought serious anom runners used capitals/fighters/POS anyway?

forums.  serious business.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1185 - 2013-12-23 17:26:02 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


well, run missions in highsec then.


We do, that's the whole point here, high sec combat pve should be in the LEAST bit attractive as an option if you have access to null (or wormhole) space or are willing to brave low sec.

The fact that it is attractive as an alternative (which is why many of us have high sec alts) points to an imbalance that many high sec people don't even want to acknowledge.

It wasn't that way when I started in 2007, if you wanted null level income from pve you went to null sec (except the people exploiting the holy hell out of the lvl 5 in high sec bug lol).

Quote:

i can't even dock in your space, you're good in high sec as long as you keep an eye on local.


There is zero reason to watch local in high sec if you aren't war-decced. When I incursion or mission in high sec (which is often) i don't even have local up where i can see it (too bad you can't really "close" local).

Quote:

I thought serious anom runners used capitals/fighters/POS anyway?


OMG is your information outdated. Fighters and capital ships, lol, no. Few use caps now because of interceptors and fighters SUCK for pve compared to drones.
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1186 - 2013-12-23 17:40:23 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

well, run missions in highsec then. i can't even dock in your space, you're good in high sec as long as you keep an eye on local. I thought serious anom runners used capitals/fighters/POS anyway?

Who says I'm not alreadyTwisted That is the sad part about this whole thing, There really is no consequence to staying in highsec, when you can make enough in one month for two PLEX to cover your highsec and your nullsec characters, just on your highsec alt alone.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1187 - 2013-12-23 18:29:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


well, run missions in highsec then.


We do, that's the whole point here, high sec combat pve should be in the LEAST bit attractive as an option if you have access to null (or wormhole) space or are willing to brave low sec.

The fact that it is attractive as an alternative (which is why many of us have high sec alts) points to an imbalance that many high sec people don't even want to acknowledge.

It wasn't that way when I started in 2007, if you wanted null level income from pve you went to null sec (except the people exploiting the holy hell out of the lvl 5 in high sec bug lol).

Quote:

i can't even dock in your space, you're good in high sec as long as you keep an eye on local.


There is zero reason to watch local in high sec if you aren't war-decced. When I incursion or mission in high sec (which is often) i don't even have local up where i can see it (too bad you can't really "close" local).

Quote:

I thought serious anom runners used capitals/fighters/POS anyway?


OMG is your information outdated. Fighters and capital ships, lol, no. Few use caps now because of interceptors and fighters SUCK for pve compared to drones.


yeah I have no idea. null sec for me is for combat. living down there has zero appeal, it's not really about the income. if they doubled null income i still wouldn't bother. I just need to make what i need to make and burn it in laser death. proper hotblooded gf business, cancels out the bearing.

I'm just surprised that SoE missions are both not the ISK faucet i was led to believe, or being run 24/7 by people. there's barely even anyone baiting people in the systems i mission in. weird. lowsec has been absolutely hammered by over-participation and you'll absolutely get ganked by rocket fit bombers.

forums.  serious business.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1188 - 2013-12-23 19:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


yeah I have no idea. null sec for me is for combat. living down there has zero appeal, it's not really about the income. if they doubled null income i still wouldn't bother. I just need to make what i need to make and burn it in laser death. proper hotblooded gf business, cancels out the bearing.


So the imbalance doesn't exist because for you null is about combat? Ok, that makes perfect sense.

Quote:

I'm just surprised that SoE missions are both not the ISK faucet i was led to believe, or being run 24/7 by people. there's barely even anyone baiting people in the systems i mission in. weird. lowsec has been absolutely hammered by over-participation and you'll absolutely get ganked by rocket fit bombers.


You are again wrong.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge/Osmon#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Apanake#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Simela#npc24 (someone is farming the unholy HELL out of those lvl 3 agents in Simela)
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Metropolis/Lanngisi#npc24

The red you see on the map is from the sister's agents throwing mission runners into adjoining systems.

For comparison, here is the null sec region I used to live in, Tribute. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tribute#npc24 And another, Insmother http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Insmother#npc24.

As has been explained, your lack of ability to make isk from sister's missions stems from you lack of ability and unwillingness to "read another mission" (so you end up just killing everything). Pro mission runners know how to blitz. And there is a LOT of people running a LOT of sister's missions (24/7) because the almost half a MILLION npcs killed in the constellations containing sister's agents in the last 24 hours didn't just somehow kill themselves...
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1189 - 2013-12-23 21:26:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


yeah I have no idea. null sec for me is for combat. living down there has zero appeal, it's not really about the income. if they doubled null income i still wouldn't bother. I just need to make what i need to make and burn it in laser death. proper hotblooded gf business, cancels out the bearing.


So the imbalance doesn't exist because for you null is about combat? Ok, that makes perfect sense.

Quote:

I'm just surprised that SoE missions are both not the ISK faucet i was led to believe, or being run 24/7 by people. there's barely even anyone baiting people in the systems i mission in. weird. lowsec has been absolutely hammered by over-participation and you'll absolutely get ganked by rocket fit bombers.


You are again wrong.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge/Osmon#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Apanake#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Simela#npc24 (someone is farming the unholy HELL out of those lvl 3 agents in Simela)
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Metropolis/Lanngisi#npc24

The red you see on the map is from the sister's agents throwing mission runners into adjoining systems.

For comparison, here is the null sec region I used to live in, Tribute. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tribute#npc24 And another, Insmother http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Insmother#npc24.

As has been explained, your lack of ability to make isk from sister's missions stems from you lack of ability and unwillingness to "read another mission" (so you end up just killing everything). Pro mission runners know how to blitz. And there is a LOT of people running a LOT of sister's missions (24/7) because the almost half a MILLION npcs killed in the constellations containing sister's agents in the last 24 hours didn't just somehow kill themselves...

You have no clue what those people might be doing.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1190 - 2013-12-23 21:26:28 UTC
lol simela is the only highsec L3 agent. and there's only 3 SoE L4 ones, curerntly.

half the agents and maybe three times the NPC kills as aunia's fed navy agent sending people to botane.

and yes i intend to invest as little intellectual effort and SP in running missions as possible as it's just dull. all the domis on the undock suggests others feel the same and also need their SP for drone ball.

because grrr drones.

forums.  serious business.

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1191 - 2013-12-23 22:09:52 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


yeah I have no idea. null sec for me is for combat. living down there has zero appeal, it's not really about the income. if they doubled null income i still wouldn't bother. I just need to make what i need to make and burn it in laser death. proper hotblooded gf business, cancels out the bearing.


So the imbalance doesn't exist because for you null is about combat? Ok, that makes perfect sense.

Quote:

I'm just surprised that SoE missions are both not the ISK faucet i was led to believe, or being run 24/7 by people. there's barely even anyone baiting people in the systems i mission in. weird. lowsec has been absolutely hammered by over-participation and you'll absolutely get ganked by rocket fit bombers.


You are again wrong.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge/Osmon#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Apanake#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Genesis/Simela#npc24 (someone is farming the unholy HELL out of those lvl 3 agents in Simela)
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Metropolis/Lanngisi#npc24

The red you see on the map is from the sister's agents throwing mission runners into adjoining systems.

For comparison, here is the null sec region I used to live in, Tribute. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tribute#npc24 And another, Insmother http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Insmother#npc24.

As has been explained, your lack of ability to make isk from sister's missions stems from you lack of ability and unwillingness to "read another mission" (so you end up just killing everything). Pro mission runners know how to blitz. And there is a LOT of people running a LOT of sister's missions (24/7) because the almost half a MILLION npcs killed in the constellations containing sister's agents in the last 24 hours didn't just somehow kill themselves...

You have no clue what those people might be doing.

Oh right, they are just sitting down to a nice tea and some biscuts, right?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1192 - 2013-12-23 23:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Pinky Hops wrote:


lol. there is no inflation in eve, or very little.

http://thethirdn.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/econ-chat-inflation-in-eve/

see: that detailed analysis. if anything, prices of goods have dropped.

The image is from the devblog, from one of CCP's inhouse economists.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63999/1/Indices_2012-10.png

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74033

But clearly you know more about economics than the PhD economist working for CCP, right? They should fire him and hire you instead.


Go look up the dev blogs that state the very things I have just said. I'll give you a hint, the mining barge dev blog has nothing at all to do with the hyper inflation we saw.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#1193 - 2013-12-23 23:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
What happened wasn't "inflation" (which Mynnna's blog does a good job of explaining); the change in indexes doesn't show it. What was happening was a massive increase in the availability of liquid ISK; people had more to spend. This created an upwards pressure on pretty much everything faction, and everything not pinned to the mineral costs.
Faction/pirate hulls, faction/DS mods, PLEX, everything that people who suddenly had buckets of ISK buy, was going up, and by a lot. Faction items that weren't even being used by them were jumping 2x in value, and those that were, were seeing a 5x price increase (webs, etc).
Perhaps more significantly a whole new population was getting lots of ISK. Risk averse carebears who were pulling lower amounts in missions / mining were suddenly shooting way past 100mil an hour in a vanguard fleet. It's no surprise all their "shiney" toys lept up in value.
If things had been left as they were, this would have eventually led to inflation (as measured by indexes) which is why CCP put in a massive nerf to them, and made noise that other income sources that paid in ISK (bounties) might be nerfed as well.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1194 - 2013-12-24 00:19:46 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
What happened wasn't "inflation" (which Mynnna's blog does a good job of explaining); the change in indexes doesn't show it. What was happening was a massive increase in the availability of liquid ISK; people had more to spend. This created an upwards pressure on pretty much everything faction, and everything not pinned to the mineral costs.
Faction/pirate hulls, faction/DS mods, PLEX, everything that people who suddenly had buckets of ISK buy, was going up, and by a lot. Faction items that weren't even being used by them were jumping 2x in value, and those that were, were seeing a 5x price increase (webs, etc).
Perhaps more significantly a whole new population was getting lots of ISK. Risk averse carebears who were pulling lower amounts in missions / mining were suddenly shooting way past 100mil an hour in a vanguard fleet. It's no surprise all their "shiney" toys lept up in value.
If things had been left as they were, this would have eventually led to inflation (as measured by indexes) which is why CCP put in a massive nerf to them, and made noise that other income sources that paid in ISK (bounties) might be nerfed as well.


It wasn't just high value items, everything at the very least doubled in price.

This is why nullsec cannot simply get its isk buffed.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1195 - 2013-12-24 00:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
lol simela is the only highsec L3 agent. and there's only 3 SoE L4 ones, curerntly.

half the agents and maybe three times the NPC kills as aunia's fed navy agent sending people to botane.

and yes i intend to invest as little intellectual effort and SP in running missions as possible as it's just dull. all the domis on the undock suggests others feel the same and also need their SP for drone ball.

because grrr drones.


A domi with guns is actually a very quick mission runner. In general my bounties / rewards etc component wound up being around 30m/hr (peak ticks of 19m, average ticks somewhat above 10m, but there are gaps in ticks due to warping too), and therefore my LP component was around 30m / hr for every 1000 isk/lp.

ie on the basis of the claim slightly earlier in this thread that the asteros bp is earning 3000 isk/lp, I would make 120m/hr with a dominix, continously. Note that the same ship in nullsec shoots 75m/hr in forsaken hubs, which incidentally is much the same as I made selling navy LP at 1400, and which incidently only one of, not the necessary two, can even spawn from the ihub in my system.

From an intellectual standpoint, I personally found working out the most effective fits, and remembering the triggers/shortcuts to pretty much be necessary to keep running interesting.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1196 - 2013-12-24 00:39:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Tauranon wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
lol simela is the only highsec L3 agent. and there's only 3 SoE L4 ones, curerntly.

half the agents and maybe three times the NPC kills as aunia's fed navy agent sending people to botane.

and yes i intend to invest as little intellectual effort and SP in running missions as possible as it's just dull. all the domis on the undock suggests others feel the same and also need their SP for drone ball.

because grrr drones.


A domi with guns is actually a very quick mission runner. In general my bounties / rewards etc component wound up being around 30m/hr (peak ticks of 19m, average ticks somewhat above 10m, but there are gaps in ticks due to warping too), and therefore my LP component was around 30m / hr for every 1000 isk/lp.

ie on the basis of the claim slightly earlier in this thread that the asteros bp is earning 3000 isk/lp, I would make 120m/hr with a dominix, continously. Note that the same ship in nullsec shoots 75m/hr in forsaken hubs, which incidentally is much the same as I made selling navy LP at 1400, and which incidently only one of, not the necessary two, can even spawn from the ihub in my system.

From an intellectual standpoint, I personally found working out the most effective fits, and remembering the triggers/shortcuts to pretty much be necessary to keep running interesting.


well i'll probably make more of an effort on that if i'm gonna run them a lot but you still have to monetise the LP ( which isn't very difficult but people always overestimate mission income because they don;'t take that into account). i have to stop running, make a few jumps, get the BPC, warp to my station, set up production, haul minerals or mine them, haul finished product to a trade hub, fill buy orders instantly (preference) or make a sell order and manage it (annoying ). so it's not ISK in the pocket like bounties even if it is pretty easy to convert.

forums.  serious business.

Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1197 - 2013-12-24 01:14:09 UTC
I don't think the average player farming to sustain his account with plex, and pvp ships should be punished because they aren't **** suckers who hide behind some zerg alliance in order to rat in peace within null sec, high sec missions are important and so are rewards.

Most people running missions for any of the empire factions aren't making good isk because the LP is nearly worthless thanks to factions, sisters of eve is the only faction you can earn good isk from LP due to the lack of inflation from being new. Once everyone starts doing sisters of eve the value of its lp will plummet, the reason we can't get macarials cheaper, is that null sec alliances gate camp all the mission hubs, and probe out anyone trying to do level 4s and **** them in blobs.

This isn't PVP this is a monopoly setup by organized criminals in game, who want to force you to join them if you meet the requirements, and pay the absorbent taxes to help fund the people who don't login and earn isk, while this protection in the form of taxes is high, your earning potential is also high assuming you're not being killed by people in your alliance who have pirate alts.

The reason null sec is broken is a multifaceted ordeal, people with more than one account ruin the game, alliances force you to join them, gate camps and local take the skill out of pvp, blobs are too powerful.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1198 - 2013-12-24 01:17:04 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
I don't think the average player farming to sustain his account with plex, and pvp ships should be punished because they aren't **** suckers who hide behind some zerg alliance in order to rat in peace within null sec, high sec missions are important and so are rewards.

Most people running missions for any of the empire factions aren't making good isk because the LP is nearly worthless thanks to factions, sisters of eve is the only faction you can earn good isk from LP due to the lack of inflation from being new. Once everyone starts doing sisters of eve the value of its lp will plummet, the reason we can't get macarials cheaper, is that null sec alliances gate camp all the mission hubs, and probe out anyone trying to do level 4s and **** them in blobs.

This isn't PVP this is a monopoly setup by organized criminals in game, who want to force you to join them if you meet the requirements, and pay the absorbent taxes to help fund the people who don't login and earn isk, while this protection in the form of taxes is high, your earning potential is also high assuming you're not being killed by people in your alliance who have pirate alts.

The reason null sec is broken is a multifaceted ordeal, people with more than one account ruin the game, alliances force you to join them, gate camps and local take the skill out of pvp, blobs are too powerful.


I vote the above most clueless post of the week.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1199 - 2013-12-24 01:18:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
I don't think the average player farming to sustain his account with plex, and pvp ships should be punished because they aren't **** suckers who hide behind some zerg alliance in order to rat in peace within null sec, high sec missions are important and so are rewards.

Most people running missions for any of the empire factions aren't making good isk because the LP is nearly worthless thanks to factions, sisters of eve is the only faction you can earn good isk from LP due to the lack of inflation from being new. Once everyone starts doing sisters of eve the value of its lp will plummet, the reason we can't get macarials cheaper, is that null sec alliances gate camp all the mission hubs, and probe out anyone trying to do level 4s and **** them in blobs.

This isn't PVP this is a monopoly setup by organized criminals in game, who want to force you to join them if you meet the requirements, and pay the absorbent taxes to help fund the people who don't login and earn isk, while this protection in the form of taxes is high, your earning potential is also high assuming you're not being killed by people in your alliance who have pirate alts.

The reason null sec is broken is a multifaceted ordeal, people with more than one account ruin the game, alliances force you to join them, gate camps and local take the skill out of pvp, blobs are too powerful.


I vote the above most clueless post of the week.


Goonswarm federation
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1200 - 2013-12-24 01:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


well i'll probably make more of an effort on that if i'm gonna run them a lot but you still have to monetise the LP ( which isn't very difficult but people always overestimate mission income because they don;'t take that into account). i have to stop running, make a few jumps, get the BPC, warp to my station, set up production, haul minerals or mine them, haul finished product to a trade hub, fill buy orders instantly (preference) or make a sell order and manage it (annoying ). so it's not ISK in the pocket like bounties even if it is pretty easy to convert.


Osmon and Jita are in the same region, which means order management can be done in warp whilst missioning, and the carting time is ridiculously short. ie the overheads in cashing sisters LP is trivial - as little as 20 minutes in 50 hours (less than 1%), and due to there being nearby low level sisters stations, there is no reason for losing a ship being used to cart cashed out items on the osmon undock.

In my case I'd stick my proteus in one of the low level stations configured for highsec carting (covops + max ehp), and since blitzers income is not bounty sensitive, they don't need to be in a player corp, thus need never undock into wartargets (and a proteus should always survive that anyway).

ie me having to move billions of isk of goods 20+ jumps through null to jita is objectively harder, less safe and takes longer than cashing sisters LP, and requires a market alt, which sisters LP does not.