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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

First post First post
Author
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#121 - 2013-10-08 00:36:15 UTC
Hideyoshi Kinoshita wrote:
Where is Meta 3 RHML?


YO-5000 RHML, located at the bottom of the list for alphabetical sorting reasons.

Katrina Oniseki

GeMiPaT
The Holy Knights of Malta
#122 - 2013-10-08 00:44:52 UTC
Hi CCP,

Nice idea, true it was missing. Just got a question:


- What about BC tier 3, will they be able to use them as they are able to use large launchers ? Do you see where I go ? A tier 3 BC with insane ROF. could be nice mid range battles.


GeM
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#123 - 2013-10-08 00:51:25 UTC
GeMiPaT wrote:
- What about BC tier 3, will they be able to use them as they are able to use large launchers ? Do you see where I go ? A tier 3 BC with insane ROF. could be nice mid range battles.

Naga on steroids?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

M1k3y Koontz
Stay Feral Mining Logistics and Manufacturing
Stay Feral
#124 - 2013-10-08 01:19:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Is a Rapid Cruise Missile Launcher on project for capitals ?


You mean make the Phoenix useful?!?! Blasphemy! Shocked

Would be probably OP for tracking dread applications...

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Jayne Fillon
#125 - 2013-10-08 01:27:00 UTC
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#126 - 2013-10-08 02:22:43 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


Interesting analysis. Probable applications of rhml as anti-t3 and anti hac weapon system? Seems like this weapon will be drawing the line in the sand where cruiser vs bs fights are concerned.
Jayne Fillon
#127 - 2013-10-08 02:51:37 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


Interesting analysis. Probable applications of rhml as anti-t3 and anti hac weapon system? Seems like this weapon will be drawing the line in the sand where cruiser vs bs fights are concerned.


These weapons seem tailored for shooting - and doing large amounts of damage to - everything between the size of cruiser and battlecruiser regardless of speed. It basically makes small gang PvP with missile battleships viable. I haven't finished the math on what a Golem is going to look like, but my money is on scary.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Funless Saisima
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#128 - 2013-10-08 03:18:05 UTC
On SISI the Golem does not give a bonus to RHML. Without the 100% bonus they are fairly useless. Is this an over-site or intentional?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#129 - 2013-10-08 04:03:20 UTC
ok confirmed nacy scorp and hrml are awesome with drones around 800 dps...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2013-10-08 04:17:01 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
These weapons seem tailored for shooting - and doing large amounts of damage to - everything between the size of cruiser and battlecruiser regardless of speed. It basically makes small gang PvP with missile battleships viable. I haven't finished the math on what a Golem is going to look like, but my money is on scary.

This is why the system seems controversal to me. On one hand, BSs will perhaps be able to go into lowsec without fear that they will be killed by anything smaller than them, which is significant part of day-to-day ship population of EVE. On the other hand, missiles are rather braindead weapon system to fly against and this newfound BS sized "challenge" boils down to whether you can go head to head in the most straight way with it or not. Unless you are seeking to swarm the thing with frigates or something. So it's kinda fine. I guess.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#131 - 2013-10-08 04:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Funless Saisima wrote:
On SISI the Golem does not give a bonus to RHML. Without the 100% bonus they are fairly useless. Is this an over-site or intentional?

For the Marauder, the hits just keep on coming...

Jayne Fillon wrote:
Let me know what you think.

I think that's a really solid writeup. I also recant - they look fine as proposed (good work CCP). The one conclusion that I did draw from this is that torpedoes need some sweet loving in the worst way. Maybe a slight damage and range buff?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#132 - 2013-10-08 04:38:47 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


Interesting analysis. Probable applications of rhml as anti-t3 and anti hac weapon system? Seems like this weapon will be drawing the line in the sand where cruiser vs bs fights are concerned.

because battleships dont already waste cruisers?

also good graphs.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#133 - 2013-10-08 05:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
As I said in the comment section, nice article !

It enlighten the role of these missiles and how they are a viable solution to pvp for missile battleships.
It is true that given the situation and the absence of range bonuses, these "long-distance" missiles are not overlapping cruise missiles domain, while at the same time, torpedoes cannot really be compared to them since they are reserved for truly massive targets.
From what I see, the missile system for battleships won't work the same way than the turret system does, since for instance a torpedo will never reach the dps of, say, a blaster, on a "regular pvp target". Yet this is balanced since there is an alternative that fits nicely at disruptor range.

Each missile type keeps its domain, and now that an interceptor can move from out of D-scan range from grid in less than 10 seconds, it is needed to have a chance of killing them even when you are a missile battleship :o

So.. good job ? :D

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#134 - 2013-10-08 06:02:19 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis
Nice analysis, but I'm concerned that no skills / mods / rigs makes the numbers a bit misleading.

Damage modifications are a wash, because they scale identically for all targets. However, considering only skill bonus, an all V missile pilot gets 1.5*1.5 = 2.25 to range, 50% reduction in target's effective velocity and 25% reduction in target's effective sig (assuming I correctly understand how GMP and TNP work). Under these numbers, a precision HML doesn't run out of range at ~14km (OH scram range or thereabouts) but at somewhere above 30km (OH point range). I suspect similar issues might apply for the damage application bonuses.

Can you re-run the numbers assuming these bonuses fully apply (all V in the four relevant skills)? Do the damage application comparisons change significantly?

I'm also curious how the 'phoon's explosion velocity bonus changes the balance. The missile velocity bonuses on the Raven and 'snake affect damage projection, and are thus easier to evaluate on your graphs by simply shifting the larger missiles 50% to the right (widening the extreme range "advantage" of cruises vs heavies and putting torps nearer to heavies in range).

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#135 - 2013-10-08 08:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
Interesting gadgets.

When they release I will probably try them out for PvE. As damage application bonuses will not apply then probably on typhoon. Something on the lines of 6x lanuchers, few missile speed rigs and probably rigor, probably sentry drones as well. Load with FoF and let them handle frigs that get close while using sentries to apply damage to targets at range.

Not entirely convinced it will be effective but I'm interested to try to see.

At first glance the damage ends up in the same ballpark with these as Tengu with heavy missiles.

I mean fleet phoon with these should be limping as far as approx 500 dps with t1 ammo for these which aint all that bad. Then top it off with sentries and it should be sort of decent platform.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#136 - 2013-10-08 09:12:40 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
ok confirmed nacy scorp and hrml are awesome with drones around 800 dps...

the increase in ammo consumption will help the economy a bit too. I'm wondering if we will see more bs fight now with torps vs rhml?
Jayne Fillon
#137 - 2013-10-08 09:34:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Funless Saisima wrote:
On SISI the Golem does not give a bonus to RHML. Without the 100% bonus they are fairly useless. Is this an over-site or intentional?

For the Marauder, the hits just keep on coming...


That would be a huge oversight, and something that I would STRONGLY advocate to change.

Quote:

Can you re-run the numbers assuming these bonuses fully apply (all V in the four relevant skills)? Do the damage application comparisons change significantly?

I'm also curious how the 'phoon's explosion velocity bonus changes the balance. The missile velocity bonuses on the Raven and 'snake affect damage projection, and are thus easier to evaluate on your graphs by simply shifting the larger missiles 50% to the right (widening the extreme range "advantage" of cruises vs heavies and putting torps nearer to heavies in range).


Do the damage applications change significantly based on skills only? No, not at all. Same as damage projection. As RHMLs still don't quite apply their full damage even against MWD Battlcruisers (Currently at 78% PME), the application against all targets will go up. The only case where this would cause a discrepancy between the weapon systems would be if you had hit 100% PME for one weapon system and not the other. As this only happen in extreme ranges for all of these systems, that's not a concern.

However, this that DO cause a change in the graph is of course non-consistent bonuses from ships such as the Typhoon.

I ran them quickly (aka didn't save the graph) but all it did was serve to close the gap between the missile systems - it definitely didn't make them ineffective or outclassed for their niche in the damage/projection graph. Really, Cruise and Torpedoes are the systems that need that bonus in order to actually function somewhat respectably, whereas certain ship bonus (ala Typhoon) would turn RHMLs into murder machines against certain ship classes such as cruisers.

I'll have more detailed information for ship bonuses soon ish maybe. I am lazy afterall.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-10-08 09:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


How do those graphs look when taking base damage into account.

Cruise missiles have a lot higher base DPS; a scenario where eg: CMLs apply 50% and RHMLs apply 60% would see the Cruise doing more actual DPS.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jayne Fillon
#139 - 2013-10-08 09:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
Malcanis wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


How do those graphs look when taking base damage into account.

Cruise missiles have a lot higher base DPS; a scenario where eg: CMLs apply 50% and RHMLs apply 60% would see the Cruise doing more actual DPS.


Base damage is taken into account in all cases.

The "arbitrary values" part simply refers to an unskilled pilot using a launcher with no ship bonuses.

The units are "Applied Damage per Second per Launcher," and they do take base damage into account.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-10-08 10:38:47 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
These weapons seem tailored for shooting - and doing large amounts of damage to - everything between the size of cruiser and battlecruiser regardless of speed. It basically makes small gang PvP with missile battleships viable. I haven't finished the math on what a Golem is going to look like, but my money is on scary.

This is why the system seems controversal to me. On one hand, BSs will perhaps be able to go into lowsec without fear that they will be killed by anything smaller than them, which is significant part of day-to-day ship population of EVE. On the other hand, missiles are rather braindead weapon system to fly against and this newfound BS sized "challenge" boils down to whether you can go head to head in the most straight way with it or not. Unless you are seeking to swarm the thing with frigates or something. So it's kinda fine. I guess.



you think? try goign into low sec then with your BS. If yu beleive a weapon like htat will make any difference. What kills the battleships is NOT that, otherwsie megatrons woudl fear nothign in low sec

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"