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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-10-08 10:40:41 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Funless Saisima wrote:
On SISI the Golem does not give a bonus to RHML. Without the 100% bonus they are fairly useless. Is this an over-site or intentional?

For the Marauder, the hits just keep on coming...


That would be a huge oversight, and something that I would STRONGLY advocate to change.

Quote:

Can you re-run the numbers assuming these bonuses fully apply (all V in the four relevant skills)? Do the damage application comparisons change significantly?

I'm also curious how the 'phoon's explosion velocity bonus changes the balance. The missile velocity bonuses on the Raven and 'snake affect damage projection, and are thus easier to evaluate on your graphs by simply shifting the larger missiles 50% to the right (widening the extreme range "advantage" of cruises vs heavies and putting torps nearer to heavies in range).


Do the damage applications change significantly based on skills only? No, not at all. Same as damage projection. As RHMLs still don't quite apply their full damage even against MWD Battlcruisers (Currently at 78% PME), the application against all targets will go up. The only case where this would cause a discrepancy between the weapon systems would be if you had hit 100% PME for one weapon system and not the other. As this only happen in extreme ranges for all of these systems, that's not a concern.

However, this that DO cause a change in the graph is of course non-consistent bonuses from ships such as the Typhoon.

I ran them quickly (aka didn't save the graph) but all it did was serve to close the gap between the missile systems - it definitely didn't make them ineffective or outclassed for their niche in the damage/projection graph. Really, Cruise and Torpedoes are the systems that need that bonus in order to actually function somewhat respectably, whereas certain ship bonus (ala Typhoon) would turn RHMLs into murder machines against certain ship classes such as cruisers.

I'll have more detailed information for ship bonuses soon ish maybe. I am lazy afterall.


If youJust balance, if you give raven the bonus the typhoon crowd will pressure for their bonus and that is somethign ccp is not willing to risk.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-10-08 12:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sparkus Volundar
Some comments:

- Cruise missiles feel a bit over-buffed when their damage application and range are compared to Torps.
- HMLs feel a bit poor compared to RLMLs and HAMLs.
- This proposal sees RHMLs have a 38% quicker RoF than HMLs.
- RLMLs only have a 20% quicker RoF than LMLs.
- Long-ranged medium turrets have been buffed.

Perhaps we could benefit from a bit slower RHML RoE and HMLs seeing their damage and/or application being increased a bit to levels intermediate with their old, pre-nerf levels. It's good to balance RLMLs against Cruise and Torps but I think it would be handy to make sure HM stats are where they need to be today before doing so.

.

Jayne Fillon
#143 - 2013-10-08 13:16:49 UTC
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
Some comments:

- Cruise missiles feel a bit over-buffed when their damage application and range are compared to Torps.
- HMLs feel a bit poor compared to RLMLs and HAMLs.
- This proposal sees RHMLs have a 23% quicker RoF than HMLs.
- RLMLs have a 17% quicker RoF than LMLs.
- Long-ranged medium turrets have been buffed.

Perhaps we could benefit from a bit slower RHML RoE and HMLs seeing their damage and/or application being increased a bit to levels intermediate with their old, pre-nerf levels. It's good to balance RLMLs against Cruise and Torps but I think it would be handy to make sure HM stats are where they need to be today before doing so.


Not sure where you're getting your numbers.

For example. RHMLs will have a 38% reduction to cycle time, not 23%.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

The Bazzalisk
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#144 - 2013-10-08 13:48:27 UTC
While we're on the topic of Heavy Missiles, it would be nice if you would tweak them to increase flight time and decrease flight velocity so that they're not the only cruiser sized weapon that will always hit. Interceptors should be able to outrun the missiles and tackle unwitting pilots like they can with every other cruiser sized weapon.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#145 - 2013-10-08 15:23:06 UTC
Will we be able to fit RHMLs to the Tengu? I don't think that would be OP at all. Not even a little bit Blink

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2013-10-08 15:25:21 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Sparkus Volundar wrote:

snip


Not sure where you're getting your numbers.

For example. RHMLs will have a 38% reduction to cycle time, not 23%.


Thanks, not sure what I did either... Correcting previous post.

.

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#147 - 2013-10-08 16:01:26 UTC
So was on sisi today, decided to put some RHMLs on my Golem to test them only did 364DPS, wow that was crap. So don't worry guys, they aren't OP at all. On my RS I got less then 200DPS. Not sure if the BS bonuses don't work with the RHMLs like they are suppose to or if they are just really that weak. I sure hope CCP works on them and fixes them because they are really worthless right now.

I also took my Golem against rats, with 2 TPs the Golem bonuses the RHMLs it took 6 to 7 shots to take out a frigate and 3 to 4 to take out a cruiser, REALLY?!
Psyren Gaterau
Me and my muli
#148 - 2013-10-08 16:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Psyren Gaterau
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
So was on sisi today, decided to put some RHMLs on my Golem to test them only did 364DPS, wow that was crap. So don't worry guys, they aren't OP at all. On my RS I got less then 200DPS. Not sure if the BS bonuses don't work with the RHMLs like they are suppose to or if they are just really that weak. I sure hope CCP works on them and fixes them because they are really worthless right now.

I also took my Golem against rats, with 2 TPs the Golem bonuses the RHMLs it took 6 to 7 shots to take out a frigate and 3 to 4 to take out a cruiser, REALLY?!


If you check your Golem's bonus you'll notice that it says something like "100% Bonus to damage of Cruise Missiles and Torpedos" so that Bonus doesn't apply to RHML. (Happened to me too, nearly filed a bug report about it, until I noticed that the Bonus works as it says it will Sad)

Whether or not that Bonus will change to apply to HM too is something the Devs have yet to let us know. I sure hope it will.

Edit:Typo
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#149 - 2013-10-08 16:47:36 UTC
I think those missiles in a tengu will rock!Yeah yeah go go go CCP!

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#150 - 2013-10-08 16:49:27 UTC
Well then the Golem and any other ship that has bonus only to torps and cruise need the RHMLs added too them, as they are suppose to be for BS size ships. Let's get on this please CCP
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#151 - 2013-10-08 16:56:48 UTC
Oh yes didn t see the powergrid needed.They are for BS size .Hehe.

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!

mama guru
Yazatas.
#152 - 2013-10-08 17:02:56 UTC
Phoon and Navy Raven will probably be the best platforms for these babies.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.

Jayne Fillon
#153 - 2013-10-08 17:16:19 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Phoon and Navy Raven will probably be the best platforms for these babies.


Neither of those ship bonuses apply to RHMLs unfortunately.

The best will be SNI and TFI.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Jayne Fillon
#154 - 2013-10-08 17:26:32 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
So was on sisi today, decided to put some RHMLs on my Golem to test them only did 364DPS, wow that was crap. So don't worry guys, they aren't OP at all. On my RS I got less then 200DPS. Not sure if the BS bonuses don't work with the RHMLs like they are suppose to or if they are just really that weak. I sure hope CCP works on them and fixes them because they are really worthless right now.

I also took my Golem against rats, with 2 TPs the Golem bonuses the RHMLs it took 6 to 7 shots to take out a frigate and 3 to 4 to take out a cruiser, REALLY?!


Golem doesn't get any bonuses.

SNI should get ~625DPS with 3x BCU when using only RHMLs

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-10-08 17:37:23 UTC
questionable dps (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)

the range is,well how shall i put this? NO (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)

other than that it would be nice to have them.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#156 - 2013-10-08 17:50:56 UTC
Jureth22 wrote:
questionable dps (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)

the range is,well how shall i put this? NO (problem lies here on the missiles themselves)

other than that it would be nice to have them.



Their dps is quite identical to cruises though. Just application within their 50ish km range is better, and they don't project beyond.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#157 - 2013-10-08 18:45:53 UTC
The Golem has that slow sucking sound, regardless of whether or not they modify the stats for it.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#158 - 2013-10-09 01:11:47 UTC
DPS prolly needs to be brought down SIGNIFICANTLY.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#159 - 2013-10-09 02:15:02 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Do the damage applications change significantly based on skills only? No, not at all.
I've looked briefly at the numbers, and this is not strictly true, primarily because DRF differs for different missiles.

Assume we are bound by the third term. The % increase in damage application for the various missiles at GMP/TNP V is as follows:
- Heavy Prec: +50% (DRF 2.7)
- Heavy: +60% (DRF 3.2)
- Cruise Prec: +66% (DRF 3.5)
- Heavy Fury: +84% (DRF 4.5)
- Cruise: +84% (DRF 4.5)
- Cruise Fury: +88% (DRF 4.7)
- Torp: +92% (DRF 5)
- Torp Javelin: +95% (DRF 5.2)
- Torp Rage: +95% (DRF 5.2)

The worse the DRF, the bigger effect of improved skills.

Comparing the biggest improvement (T2 torp) with the smallest (precision heavy), we see that all V improves relative damage application by about 30%. So this is not "no change at all". Whether it makes a practical difference is another matter (eg a Rage Torp vs a noob in a Merlin (39 sig, speed 310) increases from 1% to 2% potential damage, while the Precision Heavy improves from 26% to 39%).

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

Darth Cipherous
Highly Rated
#160 - 2013-10-09 02:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Cipherous
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I made some graphs for you nice people to muse over, enjoy:

Damage Projection for Battleship Launchers

and my personal favorite graph:

Battleship Launcher Comparison -- Anti Support

My full analysis of these launchers with other graphs and whatnot can be found here:

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher Analysis


Let me know what you think.


I think it would be beneficial to see how things stack up with missile support skills. Theoretically they improve the damage application of larger weapons more than smaller ones, right? For example, Guided Missile Precision should improve the damage of torps fired at medium/large hulls more than it would for Heavy Missiles.

Downloading eft to check myself.

edit: already covered it seems