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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

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Author
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-10-07 16:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
stoicfaux wrote:
Sooo.. 12s rof for HML. 7.45 for RHML.

12 / 7.45 = 1.61. RHML has 61% moar DPS than HML. For the Raven with it's RoF bonus, that's 1.61 / .75 = 2.15 times the DPS of a standard HML. Or, 1.61 / .75 * 6 launchers = 12.9 effective HMLs. (CNR would be the same. Golem's 100% damage bonus won't apply, so this a Golem nerf.)

So... if you're a carebear who puts 4x CN BCUs on their Raven hulls, that's 339 DPS with Fury (not including reload time) * 2.15 = 728.9 DPS.

With 5% rof and dmg implants, that's 2.15 * 375 DPS = 806 DPS with RHMLs as they currently stand (sans ammo reloading.)

With 2xMissile Speed II and 1xFlight Time rigs, that's ~75km of range.


2 BCUIIs w/CN: 2.15 * 228 = 490
2 BCUIIs w/Fury: 2.15 * 267 DPS = 574
3 BCUIIs w/CN: 2.15 * 256 = 550
3 BCUIIs w/Fury: 2.15 * 300 DPS = 645



Real quick math in my head fancies that the difference between these systems and precision cruise is sufficiently negligible that you'll be better off with cruise. That was my CNR though.


Edit: I suppose they may be worried about precision weapons in the heavy class but ..... Seems a bit thin.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#82 - 2013-10-07 16:49:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).
Gotta chime in with most everybody else on this one. Lack of applicable bonuses seem to make these modules rather underwhelming. Sure adding the bonuses will make them cruiser killing beasts, but is that really a bad thing? Normal fit BSs are gonna rip them apart, and AB frigs are still gonna be able to swarm all over them. Don't really see a balance issue here.

P.S. - Fix Defender missiles (ie. make them apply Tracking disruptor effects to missiles) and you'll have a nice counter option to these new modules.
AskariRising
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-10-07 17:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: AskariRising
anti- cruiser raven:

two heavy neuts II

4 RHML's

1 sram

2 webs

1 large shield extender

2 invul field II

1 100mn AB

4 bcu's II

1 damage control

3 defenese field extenders



would this fit not wreck everything under the sun NOT a BS?

its basically the big brother of the anti-frig caracal with 3 times the EHP, double webs will stop frigs in their tracks if you can scram them, and the AB makes sure you keep an advantage in speed while your heavy nuets deprive them of any opportunity to fight back, defend themselves, or do anything for that matter
Naoru Kozan
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-10-07 17:13:14 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


Yeaaaah shooting Precision Cruise missiles at a Talos....try Faction Cruise missiles for much improved results.

Faction HMLs would be a better comparison for Precision Cruise missiles on a Typhoon. While Fury HMLs would compare better with Faction Cruises.

The Rapid Heavy Launchers look ok. Can't make an informed judgement until I've had a play with them on Sisi.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#85 - 2013-10-07 17:13:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Type ( CPU need / PG need / rate of fire)

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I (50 / 960 / 9.3s)
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II (59 / 1210 / 7.45s)
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I (46 / 1160 / 7.45s)
'Limos' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I (49 / 1160 / 8.37s)
'Malkuth' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I (43 / 1160 / 8.84s)
Caldari Navy Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (59 / 1060 / 6.51s)
Domination Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (43 / 1160 / 7.21s)
Dread Guristas Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (59 / 1060 / 6.51s)
Estamel's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (72 / 1060 / 5.21s)
Gotan's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (50 / 1160 / 6.33s)
Hakim's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (48 / 1160 / 6.7s)
Kaikka's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (62 / 1060 / 6.19s)
Mizuro's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (45 / 1160 / 7.07s)
Republic Fleet Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (43 / 1160 / 7.21s)
Shaqil's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (50 / 1060 / 5.96s)
Thon's Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (66 / 1060 / 5.86s)
Tobias' Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (52 / 1160 / 5.96s)
True Sansha Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (43 / 1160 / 7.21s)
Vepas' Modified Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (68 / 1060 / 5.54s)
YO-5000 Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (51 / 1160 / 7.91s)


Heavy Missile Launcher I (50 / 100 / 15s)
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I (40 / 100 / 14s)
Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay (45 / 100 / 13.5s)
XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay (48 / 100 / 12.75s)
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher (43 / 100 / 12s)
Heavy Missile Launcher II (55 / 105 / 12s)
'Undertaker' Heavy Missile Launcher (43 / 90 / 13.5s)
Domination Heavy Missile Launcher (40 / 100 / 11.625s)
Republic Fleet Heavy Missile Launcher (40 / 100 / 11.625s)
True Sansha Heavy Missile Launcher (40 / 100 / 11.625s)
Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher (55 / 90 / 10.5s)
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher (55 / 90 / 10.5s)

So we're looking at an increase in the rate of heavy missile fire of about 67.2% or so... but a navy drake has 8 launcher hardpoints and a Raven has but 6, to the net increase in rate of fire between a navy drake and a raven is only about... what? ~ 34% ish? Did I screw that up? The Raven sounds like a bargain, given the difference in price between the two.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#86 - 2013-10-07 17:13:44 UTC
AskariRising wrote:



would this fit not wreck everything under the sun NOT a BS?


It wouldnt because cruisers can project outside of heavy neut range nowadays
Gorski Car
#87 - 2013-10-07 17:21:53 UTC
Naoru Kozan wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


Yeaaaah shooting Precision Cruise missiles at a Talos....try Faction Cruise missiles for much improved results.

Faction HMLs would be a better comparison for Precision Cruise missiles on a Typhoon. While Fury HMLs would compare better with Faction Cruises.

The Rapid Heavy Launchers look ok. Can't make an informed judgement until I've had a play with them on Sisi.


Precisions do more dps then cn if the talos is linked. I am not using crash/dps application rigs/implants for simplicity so that even you could understand. Obviously this failed.

Collect this post

Naoru Kozan
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-10-07 17:24:32 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
Naoru Kozan wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


Yeaaaah shooting Precision Cruise missiles at a Talos....try Faction Cruise missiles for much improved results.

Faction HMLs would be a better comparison for Precision Cruise missiles on a Typhoon. While Fury HMLs would compare better with Faction Cruises.

The Rapid Heavy Launchers look ok. Can't make an informed judgement until I've had a play with them on Sisi.


Precisions do more dps then cn if the talos is linked. I am not using crash/dps application rigs/implants for simplicity so that even you could understand. Obviously this failed.


EFT warrioring > practical experience? :P
AskariRising
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-10-07 17:25:06 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
AskariRising wrote:



would this fit not wreck everything under the sun NOT a BS?


It wouldnt because cruisers can project outside of heavy neut range nowadays


how long does an overheated disruptor last? thats all the time they have to kill you
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#90 - 2013-10-07 17:29:10 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I'm currently running the numbers on the new ships, but the bonus to explosion radius and velocity from the RNI and Typhoon seems like an oversight imho. I'll confirm this once I actually run the numbers, but I'm suspicious that without these bonuses the new missiles will come across as an afterthought, not an alternative.


yeah its like telling me the tracking bonus on the megathron only works on ions and nuetron but not elctron blasters


Yep, maybe they should (or rather, let us) actually do some testing before making a decision.

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#91 - 2013-10-07 17:29:41 UTC
I like it! lovely, will be awesome on some ships like the CNR and CNS!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-10-07 17:33:03 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Is a Rapid Cruise Missile Launcher on project for capitals ?

This could actually be a pretty cool idea. I'd also like to see XL Electron Blasters, Quad Mega Pulse Lasers, and a comparable XL autocannon. If they had DPS much higher than a battleship (but much lower than the siege weapons), then they could be used by dreadnoughts to attack subcaps. They would of course need to have lower tracking than battleship weapons, but it'd make for a cool trick. Dreadnoughts engaging our station? Lets hit em with a battleship fleet! Oh noes they all fit small XL weapons!!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#93 - 2013-10-07 17:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Soldarius wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
RLMLs are overpowered because light missiles are overpowered, but also just the role itself. We have these things called destroyers, which are supposed to kill frigates - it's what they do, and then the caracal comes along and does more damage at 5x the range, goes faster and has many times the tank.
Not sure why we need another class of ships that wrecks cruisers, we already have battlecruisers, and they're far more prominent than they probably should be.


RLML Caracal has the same range as a Talwar, and most certainly is not as fast, for 10x the cost. Indeed it does have a better tank. But +1 ship size category. Get your facts straight.


Might i suggest that the facts that you're so proud of yourself for having

Are wrong.

First you took his range comment out of context
Quote:
"does more damage at 5x the range,"
. Highlighted the important part for you. You know.. and the fact that if you read his former posts as well you would know that he thinks the LML's on said Talwars are also overpowered.

Ohh and the Caracal is faster than the talwar by about 170 m/s, Get your facts straight?


Compare lml's to all other small long range weapons and you will see why they are grossly overpowered. RLML's simply put those overpowered weapons on crusiers you can easily overtank because, low fittings.


Edit: Ohh and its like 3x the cost at the very most. Gotta count the fits.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

WInter Borne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-10-07 18:02:27 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.

Using EM against a loki? really?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2013-10-07 18:03:08 UTC
WInter Borne wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.

Using EM against a loki? really?


Surely you're joking...........

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#96 - 2013-10-07 18:10:00 UTC
WInter Borne wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.

Using EM against a loki? really?


Reading is hard, but please make an effort
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#97 - 2013-10-07 18:12:09 UTC
People always have to have something to ***** about it seems. The rapid launchers are made to kill smaller ships, but against a cruiser or bigger they are pretty much worthless, just like dual 180mm, ions and the other smallest versions of the med/large guns. They are great against smaller ships but terrible against bigger ones. The new RHML is no different, it will be great against cruiser size ships, and maybe some BC, but against frigates, most BC and BS it won't do much. Guns have a lot of options to them, even drones do, but missiles have very few. I think as long as they do these right they will be very nice, and work just like the RMLs.
If you think the RMLs are OP, attack a Vaga, or Cerb, or etc with them, let me know how it goes for you. These are made to go against smaller targets, doesn't make them OP, and just makes them good for specific type of job.

And like EVERYTHING else in EVE these will be tested first on sisi, and should have most of the bugs and issues worked out by Nov 19th I'd say.
WInter Borne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-10-07 18:13:37 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
WInter Borne wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.

Using EM against a loki? really?


Surely you're joking...........

I apparently can't read, more news at 11:00.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-10-07 18:32:36 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Quote:
Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).


now well that sucks balls...

i had this picture in my mind of the phoon being a useful fleet ship...

i saw the phoon as the new anti ahac ship...

now i am unsure why would you fit the new launcher if you cant take advantage of the ships bonus.



Current HM's are bad, those are actually so bad you can make a Raven be better with cruises all the way. With faction ammo and top skills you can get a 150'ish explo radius from cruises ad a Tp and from regular frigs to BSs you have the right weapon you need.
RHMLs will not be that great without a slight increase in HMs base speed, a -8/10% explo radius buff and a little 10% dmg increase because :medium turrets buff:

Just throwing some numbers out, some will most probably post better numbers once they run their spreadsheets.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#100 - 2013-10-07 18:43:27 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
People always have to have something to ***** about it seems. The rapid launchers are made to kill smaller ships, but against a cruiser or bigger they are pretty much worthless, just like dual 180mm, ions and the other smallest versions of the med/large guns. They are great against smaller ships but terrible against bigger ones. The new RHML is no different, it will be great against cruiser size ships, and maybe some BC, but against frigates, most BC and BS it won't do much. Guns have a lot of options to them, even drones do, but missiles have very few. I think as long as they do these right they will be very nice, and work just like the RMLs.
If you think the RMLs are OP, attack a Vaga, or Cerb, or etc with them, let me know how it goes for you. These are made to go against smaller targets, doesn't make them OP, and just makes them good for specific type of job.

And like EVERYTHING else in EVE these will be tested first on sisi, and should have most of the bugs and issues worked out by Nov 19th I'd say.


RLML's are not like "ions" (the fact that you don't even know which blasters are the smallest speaks volumes)

RLML's are like if you could use small railguns on a thorax with an increased rate of fire and full dps bonuses. Except lml's are overpowered.

If you want to do a cerb vs cerb comparison i suggest you try doing a dps comparison between two cerbs fighting while running mwd. One with HML's and the other with rlml's.

Now try adding links.

Now try to see how they would do against a small frigate gang.

The entire premise of your argument is false.

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