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Dear CCP please dont nerf the machariel

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-09-16 18:04:59 UTC
If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull....
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#162 - 2013-09-16 18:32:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:



Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.



Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything.

....and then....neuts

And then you bring passive ships, especially tankier ones such ad rokhs and abaddons. Neuts? Have fun being in somewhere in blaster range.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
KnightMaire kings
The Exchange Collective
#163 - 2013-09-16 18:50:26 UTC
the mach can put out to much dps to far out to be balenced and is op befor you put in its stuppid fast and stuped agile that is not even relevent to the argument all that matters is no other t2 or p faction bs can kill 1 end of convo it need to be nerfed or all others need a buff (rattler and nighmare (mabby balgorn))

The only major drawback is the crazed notion that the inventory would look so much better if merely rearranged ONE MORE TIME.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2013-09-16 18:53:10 UTC
Onictus wrote:
[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.


Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach.

Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8

I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#165 - 2013-09-16 18:58:10 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull....


Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol.

When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2013-09-16 19:28:32 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Onictus wrote:
[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.


Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach.

Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8

I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff.


25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.

....and I never said that the Pest hit harder, I said "only 11,000" which would imply that it was less than the mach's 13,000 quoted now wouldn't it? Not to mention there is room to slide a pair or cruise launchers onto a Fleet Pest, so 9500 some odd for the mael and more like 14,000 for the mach.

For a 1/4 of the price, its not a terrible trade off, plus waiting for 1400s to cycle is like watching your beard grow.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#167 - 2013-09-16 19:41:03 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!

Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible.


IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local.

If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design.

The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes.

It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons.

And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling.

ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II.
My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials.


I'll agree that the balance hasn't made things perfect, but I would say it made things much better.

Pre-tiericide: "I want to fly a (Kestrel, Atron, Punisher, Merlin, frigate that isn't Rifter). I'd better just forget this and fly a Rifter."
"Thrasher is best Dessie."
"Cruisers are trash, and the Rupture is the king of trash."
"Better fly a Drake or Cane."

I think the only ship class for which tiers worked was BS's because it left a significantly cheaper option in the BS class where the cost finally became important enough to want a wide spread of options. Everything else was a case of "pick this or die".

Post-tiericide: Fly what you want, some are better than others, and some are pretty situation dependent, but you actually have choices, and it's more player skill dependent than before.

Lilliana Stelles wrote:

ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II.

No. ISK isn't a balancing factor. Method of acquisition is. We the players set the ISK value based on supply (method of acquisition) and demand (based on stats of the module). If Officer mods had stats on par with TII they'd cost an arbitrary amount based on how many people want to fit their ship thematically (e.g. Estamel's Raven). They would still cost more due to the low supply, but due to the relatively low demand they wouldn't cost as much as now.
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#168 - 2013-09-16 19:46:09 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%.

What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway.

That would be relevant if all drones moved


Well the projectile bonus is irrelevant if you use hybrid too... just use drones that move (heavies etc). If the fit is sentry it impacts the DPS somewhat tho.

Better they nerf that than bring the speed down to 800m/s with mwd.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2013-09-16 19:54:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull....


Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol.

When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion...


cool party. are incursions fleets of this type done a lot?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2013-09-17 06:32:40 UTC
Onictus wrote:
25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.


If you are talking DPS and not alpha, but that is still completely irrelevant, because the mach gets the same ROF bonus (without BS even being trained to V). 8 guns with a 25% rof bonus vs 7 guns with a 25% rof bonus and a 25% damage bonus.

Your claim that the mael hits harder is just plain wrong.
The mach out DPSs it, and out alphas it. And becuase projectiles mostly operate in falloff, the machs falloff bonus leads to even more applied DPS. And because the mach is faster, by active piloting, you can lower the traversal between you and your target even more, leading to even more applied damage.

You can keep trying, but its futile, no other projectile boat comes close to dealing as much damage as the mach.
Nor do any come close in speed.
And you want to claim that isk or ~10% ehp difference balances this.... sure, whatever
Krullon
Windrammers
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2013-09-17 06:51:54 UTC
LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day!
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-09-17 09:00:37 UTC
Krullon wrote:
LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day!


Translation:

Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations.
Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#173 - 2013-09-17 19:16:47 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Mra Rednu wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "


All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed.

P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then.


Still more than you I'd wager.
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#174 - 2013-09-17 22:41:21 UTC
Machariel & cynabal have been waiting a well deserved nerf bat strike for quite some times now. Straight

-
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#175 - 2013-09-18 05:12:15 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Krullon wrote:
LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day!


Translation:

Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations.


Theres lots of good posts here explaining why thats not exactly the case.

Out of the 4 empires, it really only excels in Minmatar for PvE. It really Only Excels in small gang PvP, and certainly not a small gang of Machs. Its an Angel killer. Let it kill Angels. Give it a slight agility penalty and be done with it. Dont make it less powerful than an RS.

Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.

Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.

Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.

Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#176 - 2013-09-18 08:08:02 UTC
But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? Smile
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2013-09-18 09:46:20 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.

Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.

Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.

Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf.


Right, the TFI (pest I assume, there's two that start with T), which has 16.67% less gun DPS, less speed, less sig res, less drones, and a bit weaker cap is going to finish it faster.

The NM is only good in amarr space... the Mach can load EMP, fit an armor tank, and run in amarr space well (armor tank not even needed, but native resists do help), or it can load fusion, fit a shield tank, and run in minmatar space - or load PP/titanium sabots (though the range/tracking is rarely needed), and run in gallente/caldari space.

If we're talking the vargur, then the mach is less versatile in PvE

For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal.
A snake may present a tough target for a solo, but I think we'll all agree the NM is the worst of the pirate boats at PvP.
Its not even that good at PvE, because its tank type (shields) is weak to its damage type - and NPC rats often have the same damage type weakness as damage type dealt. It tanks best against Angel/Minmatar NPC, but DPSs best against sansha/BR.
For killing rats the fastest, you'd go against Sansha/BR, which often cap neut, and the NM is very vulnerable to such things


Teinyhr wrote:
But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? Smile

Yes, I agree, the mach could escape a nerf if the other pirate BSs get buffed appropriately - especially the NM and snake.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2013-09-18 11:54:10 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:

For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal.



Vastly prefered?


I've died to a mach exactly one time the entire time I've been playing and I was sniped out of a perch from over 200km in a ceptor.

If they are so prefered you sure as **** don't see them much.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2013-09-18 12:27:33 UTC
Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.

But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare?
A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?

I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)

32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail

23 pages of results for a vindi

14 pages of results for a Bhaal

7 pages for a Rattlesnake

5 pages for a Nightmare


The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell.
The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2013-09-18 19:20:35 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.

But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare?
A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?

I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)

32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail

23 pages of results for a vindi

14 pages of results for a Bhaal

7 pages for a Rattlesnake

5 pages for a Nightmare


The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell.
The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL



Eve Uni?

Yes, that bastion of skilled high SP pilots with both the skills and the money run around in billion isk hulls......also since they tend to blob around low sec they are about the perfect target for pirates that DO have access to that sort of asset. In fact I sat there in a cov-ops and watched two SCUM (I think it was) go 2 on 15 cyna's one kitchensink drakes and canes and whatnot back before all of the rebalances and those to pirates killed 9-10 ships for the few survivors got smart and warped away.

.....not the best litmus.