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Dear CCP please dont nerf the machariel

First post
Author
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#121 - 2013-09-14 15:07:42 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
They're fantastic in PvE for L4 missioning (1040 DPS using normal ammo and 700m/s), very cheap to kit out since all you need is a decent afterburner, so you can avoid mission gankers who are in it to get shiny modules.

They're just too fast/agile for a battleship, so it's likely they'll be brought more in line with their counter parts. They shouldn't be able to be more mobile than battlecruisers!



So you are saying nerf because they MISSION to well?

lol

If they are faster than battlecruisers they have less tank.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#122 - 2013-09-14 15:59:33 UTC
Machariel is cruiser a lot of confusion in this thread.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-09-14 22:34:22 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:

Second, in a small gang pvp fight (which is arguably the strongest situation for the mach), the mach still suffers from terrible tracking. Capless weapons hardly matter when you have to burn your MWD constantly to avoid dying (because your tank is abysmal), and enjoy outtracking yourself with your MWD because AC's have bad tracking and you get no tracking bonus.

AC tracking is middle of the road for short ranged weapon systems, and with all those lows there's room for some Tracking Enhancers, or were you planning on filling them all up with nanos just to reduce the apparent tank?

As for people complaining about the Mach's terrible cap - it's about the same as most battleships, and they all have cap trouble when running MWDs. However, there's a type of ship, the'logistics ship' that has within it several classes of ship that specialise in transferring capacitor charge to other ships. Those who are having trouble with their battleships' cap might want to try bringing some along to their next fight.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-09-15 13:21:54 UTC
The single ship I've seen go faster than a very well pimp Vindicator to clean a Guristas Sanctum is a well pimp Machariel, 17 min for vindi a bit less than 15 for machariel, indeed it's a horrible ship.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2013-09-15 13:54:35 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:

Second, in a small gang pvp fight (which is arguably the strongest situation for the mach), the mach still suffers from terrible tracking. Capless weapons hardly matter when you have to burn your MWD constantly to avoid dying (because your tank is abysmal), and enjoy outtracking yourself with your MWD because AC's have bad tracking and you get no tracking bonus.

AC tracking is middle of the road for short ranged weapon systems, and with all those lows there's room for some Tracking Enhancers, or were you planning on filling them all up with nanos just to reduce the apparent tank?

As for people complaining about the Mach's terrible cap - it's about the same as most battleships, and they all have cap trouble when running MWDs. However, there's a type of ship, the'logistics ship' that has within it several classes of ship that specialise in transferring capacitor charge to other ships. Those who are having trouble with their battleships' cap might want to try bringing some along to their next fight.



Yes, keeping cap chains up at over 2000m/s is the way you go about it.....with MWD basi's I presume? That always happens.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-09-15 18:26:39 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).

Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.

I seriously don't get the pitchforks.

If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much?
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2013-09-15 20:57:07 UTC
Texty wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).

Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.

I seriously don't get the pitchforks.

If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much?


The whole idea is silly mainly.

Like I said I have one, I'm even skilled damn near perfectly for it.

I don't understand the pitchforks.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-09-15 21:48:39 UTC
Berendas wrote:
The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships.


yeah .. saw a dev response akin to this fairly recently aswell

something along the lines of .. it's a little OP and needs some tweaking, but not overly much (not the Devs exact words, just what I remember from the post)
iirc he was discussing the pirate faction battleships in general, should be searchable for in the dev-post tracker that's somewhere
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#129 - 2013-09-15 22:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Texty wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).

Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.

I seriously don't get the pitchforks.

If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much?


Are you trolling?
What would you do if they wanted to rebalance things that you thought didn't need it?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-09-16 06:32:36 UTC
No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.

When you look at the projectile BS boats and want:
* the fastest - get a mach
* the highest DPS - get a mach
* the best sniper - get a mach
* the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach
* Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach

But for hybrid BS boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close
* the highest DPS - get a Vindi
* the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega
* the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion
* Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi

For laser boats:

* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc
* the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon
* the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc
* the best shield tank - get a Nightmare
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn
* Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal


For drone boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Domi
* the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi
* the best sniper - get a Domi
* the best shield tank - get a Snake
* the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon
* Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest.
* Want to neut your target - get a geddon


The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.

None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it)
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2013-09-16 09:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Verity Sovereign wrote:
No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.

When you look at the projectile BS boats and want:
* the fastest - get a mach
* the highest DPS - get a mach
* the best sniper - get a mach
* the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach
* Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach

But for hybrid BS boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close
* the highest DPS - get a Vindi
* the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega
* the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion
* Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi

For laser boats:

* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc
* the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon
* the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc
* the best shield tank - get a Nightmare
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn
* Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal


For drone boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Domi
* the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi
* the best sniper - get a Domi
* the best shield tank - get a Snake
* the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon
* Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest.
* Want to neut your target - get a geddon


The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.

None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it)


You are nuts if you think a mach can fit close to the tank that a maelstrom can, and its rivaled by a fleet pest in the armor category.....easily.

Again not the machs issue CCP jacked up Tempest when they rebalance.....which we warned them about, but than again you are making unfair comparisons. So far as projectiles go mach only tops maelstrom by about 200 dps in mission trim, the issue being the maelstrom it's just a big slow brick.

Why does mach in validate "all projectile" ships, but Vindi does not? Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy, and it can flat out tank a navy mega, it has a bigger buffer, bigger dps and ungodly web bonus.

But vindi is fine you are making a plainly biased statement.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-09-16 12:17:13 UTC
Everyone and his grand mother hates T3's for so many biased reasons it would take me at least 3 pages to name them all.
Once upon a time there was a T3 frigate named Dramiel, you know what happened to it and why.

Right now there's only one T3 Battleship, can do everything another one does but better and faster, in fact can be so fast few cruisers can match its top speed this BS is capable of or agility, shoot faction shortest range ammo with auto canons at almost double range of rails optimal with faction AM is also something that needs to be brought in line.
This ship can fit arties, a full active tank, prop mod/s full rigs for tank/mobility or dmg, drop 5 sentries on top and all of it without a single fitting module or sacrifice.

No other ship offers this much or abilities, fitting possibilities or fitting modules immunity. There's something obviously wrong with it.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2013-09-16 12:33:41 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Everyone and his grand mother hates T3's for so many biased reasons it would take me at least 3 pages to name them all.
Once upon a time there was a T3 frigate named Dramiel, you know what happened to it and why.

Right now there's only one T3 Battleship, can do everything another one does but better and faster, in fact can be so fast few cruisers can match its top speed this BS is capable of or agility, shoot faction shortest range ammo with auto canons at almost double range of rails optimal with faction AM is also something that needs to be brought in line.
This ship can fit arties, a full active tank, prop mod/s full rigs for tank/mobility or dmg, drop 5 sentries on top and all of it without a single fitting module or sacrifice.

No other ship offers this much or abilities, fitting possibilities or fitting modules immunity. There's something obviously wrong with it.


What are you smoking?

There are no T3 frigates or battle ships....none
Second mach can't fit 1400s without a fitting mod, nor can it drop 5 sentry drone.....

And it can only out run a couple cruisers, it goes 2550 ish overheated with a T2 mwd. That means there is a pretty long list of cruisers that can match exceed its top speed.....like every HAC now except eagle.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#134 - 2013-09-16 13:07:33 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.

When you look at the projectile BS boats and want:
* the fastest - get a mach
* the highest DPS - get a mach
* the best sniper - get a mach
* the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach
* Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach

But for hybrid BS boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close
* the highest DPS - get a Vindi
* the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega
* the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion
* Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi

For laser boats:

* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc
* the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon
* the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc
* the best shield tank - get a Nightmare
* the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn
* Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries
* Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal


For drone boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Domi
* the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi
* the best sniper - get a Domi
* the best shield tank - get a Snake
* the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon
* Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest.
* Want to neut your target - get a geddon


The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.

None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it)


You are nuts if you think a mach can fit close to the tank that a maelstrom can, and its rivaled by a fleet pest in the armor category.....easily.

Again not the machs issue CCP jacked up Tempest when they rebalance.....which we warned them about, but than again you are making unfair comparisons. So far as projectiles go mach only tops maelstrom by about 200 dps in mission trim, the issue being the maelstrom it's just a big slow brick.

Why does mach in validate "all projectile" ships, but Vindi does not? Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy, and it can flat out tank a navy mega, it has a bigger buffer, bigger dps and ungodly web bonus.

But vindi is fine you are making a plainly biased statement.


Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Lilliana Stelles
#135 - 2013-09-16 13:14:37 UTC
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?

Not a forum alt. 

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-09-16 13:29:54 UTC
Well, if you are talking PvEing with local reps, then sure, but if you're talking buffer, they're pretty much the same.

And I didn't say the Vindi speed tanks better than the N Mega (I specifically pointed out that the N mega is faster)

FWIW, I think the Vindi is in a good spot - although I'm not sure it deserves the very limited targeting range (sure, its supposed to excel in the close range role, but why can't it still do OK in longer range applications without that gimp).
I'm not trying to argue the Vindi is OP'd

I want the NM/Bhaal/Snake buffed, the Vindi to remain more or less the same, and the Mach to get nerfed
(FWIW, I have all of them, and 2 of my toons fly a mach - just finished projectile V on one of them yesterday)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-09-16 13:33:11 UTC
Onictus wrote:
What are you smoking?


Nothing special, regular Camel pack, reducing thou. Sports and tobacco don't go really well together. And you?

Quote:
There are no T3 frigates or battle ships....none


Indeed but in fact those Angel ships are so good, everyone and his cat call them T3 ships. Search function doesn't always work for me but I can google, well sometimes at least.

Quote:
Second mach can't fit 1400s without a fitting mod, nor can it drop 5 sentry drone.....


Indeed, however I never said 1400's, I said arties and as far as I know 1200's are not really pulse lasers amirite?
Where you're right is you can't drop the 5 sentries because of bandwidth but you can still have a flight of lights on top of 4 gardes dishing 240dps, or another sentry in case you loose one.

This is a terrible fit, really horrible we can agree on that but lets say I want to peeveepee with cheapo fit:
- if I want to fit 120k EHP tank, dish 950dps without a single fitting mod and without ANY faction mod: I can !!

[Machariel lol]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Bouncer II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5

Even added a drone dmg module for giggles but could put a nano instead and raise the 1550m/s top speed a bit, like give it racing tires.
Now that you got the gist of the main "thing", I'll let you play with pyfa/eft and figure out the numbers you can get with faction/DED stuff.
Once you start pimp a bit of it you can fit 1400's T2 for +13K alpha 1050+ dps and still keep over 125K EHP (omni) or 135 vs lasers (depends on tank mods of course, I just took cheapo Pith C-Types), eventually you might need a 3 or 5% pg implant depending on what you choose but in the end what it matters is that if you want you can, with another BS you can't.


Onictus wrote:
And it can only out run a couple cruisers, it goes 2550 ish overheated with a T2 mwd. That means there is a pretty long list of cruisers that can match exceed its top speed.....like every HAC now except eagle.


Waw, 2550m/s.
If I fit my ships for pvp I actually have none of them able to do this speed except frigs or my Cynabal, and now Vagabond.
This is the point: if you fit your Mach for pvp you can push it to almost 2km/s still, no other battleship can do so and still have a full fit without a single fitting module or rigs for this, Mach all it needs is a couple nanos, add an overdrive and your 2500mark gets burn easily.


Now we can also start making active tank PVE fits, it's even more funny to see how better it becomes as soon as you start pimp it.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#138 - 2013-09-16 13:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Doe
Edit: sometimes I misread things

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2013-09-16 14:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Drake Doe wrote:


Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?



Speed Tank? Are you kidding? With armor tanked battleships? Blowing your sig into a capital territory doesn't exactly make for a speed tanker.

You can nano them (in fact I have nano-hype sitting around somewhere). But you are talking a difference of 4m/s difference in base speeds, so that is negligible speed advantage, the N mega is more agile but has less buffer. Then again after putting a couple plates and tirmarking them that is kind a false economy you are only going to get into the 1400m/s range anyway.

If you are doing anything but active armor with a hype the vidi a better choice all around and even then the tracking bonus makes a Vidi a better turret boat then hype between the N mega the Vindi is going to better damage generally, the ROF bonus on the N mega doesn't quite catch to Vindi's raw damage.

Not to mention that active armor battleships are kind of a niche thing, not for the least of reason is that it takes a single ship with a neut and you begin the race, your cap boosters against their DPS. Of course with the changes last patch it my be worth revisiting Hyperion, but I don't really need another battleship to cart around. They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-09-16 14:24:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:
They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load.


This is something we can agree together in this thread and I'm not joking at all, we need bigger ship hangars in our regular carriers.
But for Mach, I still have to disagree about. All I want is this ship to get an agility/mass nerf, the 10% fall off to become a 5% fall off and it will be ok with rest of fittings abilities etc.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne