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Dear CCP please dont nerf the machariel

First post
Author
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#141 - 2013-09-16 14:29:05 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:


Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?



Speed Tank? Are you kidding? With armor tanked battleships? Blowing your sig into a capital territory doesn't exactly make for a speed tanker.

You can nano them (in fact I have nano-hype sitting around somewhere). But you are talking a difference of 4m/s difference in base speeds, so that is negligible speed advantage, the N mega is more agile but has less buffer. Then again after putting a couple plates and tirmarking them that is kind a false economy you are only going to get into the 1400m/s range anyway.

If you are doing anything but active armor with a hype the vidi a better choice all around and even then the tracking bonus makes a Vidi a better turret boat then hype between the N mega the Vindi is going to better damage generally, the ROF bonus on the N mega doesn't quite catch to Vindi's raw damage.

Not to mention that active armor battleships are kind of a niche thing, not for the least of reason is that it takes a single ship with a neut and you begin the race, your cap boosters against their DPS. Of course with the changes last patch it my be worth revisiting Hyperion, but I don't really need another battleship to cart around. They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load.

Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2013-09-16 14:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:




Indeed, however I never said 1400's, I said arties and as far as I know 1200's are not really pulse lasers amirite?
Where you're right is you can't drop the 5 sentries because of bandwidth but you can still have a flight of lights on top of 4 gardes dishing 240dps, or another sentry in case you loose one.

This is a terrible fit, really horrible we can agree on that but lets say I want to peeveepee with cheapo fit:
- if I want to fit 120k EHP tank, dish 950dps without a single fitting mod and without ANY faction mod: I can !!

[Machariel lol]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Bouncer II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5


Ok so 120k Ehp, a cap that last for barely 80 second (slightly worse with the meta MWD) and even then you can't use the range afforded by the hull because macharial sensor strength is crap, it only locks for 77km without a SeBo which sort of defeats the purpose of the nasty sniper boat.

This is more typical of a PvP fit

[Machariel, Mach]

7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Barrage L)
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Navy Cap Booster 800)
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
2x Nanofiber Internal Structure II

2x Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II

4x Garde II
5x Hobgoblin II

eHP: LOL a whopping 78k
1065DPS (I usually use three TEsm but for the sake of argument)
VERY dependant on that cap booster, 90 seconds of cap without it
top speed 2629 overheated (which makes it all worth while) and an 8.26s align with the MWD on It ***** and gits


Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Even added a drone dmg module for giggles but could put a nano instead and raise the 1550m/s top speed a bit, like give it racing tires.
Now that you got the gist of the main "thing", I'll let you play with pyfa/eft and figure out the numbers you can get with faction/DED stuff.
Once you start pimp a bit of it you can fit 1400's T2 for +13K alpha 1050+ dps and still keep over 125K EHP (omni) or 135 vs lasers (depends on tank mods of course, I just took cheapo Pith C-Types), eventually you might need a 3 or 5% pg implant depending on what you choose but in the end what it matters is that if you want you can, with another BS you can't.


Yes, because when PvPing with a billion isk hull, I always spend more billions pimp fitting it? You can do the 1400mm blap with a Meal or Tempest, for a 1/4 of the price and it works well enough, in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.




Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Waw, 2550m/s.
If I fit my ships for pvp I actually have none of them able to do this speed except frigs or my Cynabal, and now Vagabond.
This is the point: if you fit your Mach for pvp you can push it to almost 2km/s still, no other battleship can do so and still have a full fit without a single fitting module or rigs for this, Mach all it needs is a couple nanos, add an overdrive and your 2500mark gets burn easily.


Go for it, so again, after two nano's and an overdrive there goes your damage and/or a good chunk of your range, not to mention that you only have enough room for 4 low slot weapon mods, your eHP is down 30%, and you MUST fit a cap booster so you only get a three slot tank.

....and I have used my mach in PvP. Have you used one?

For the rest of have scimitars that are faster than dual nano-machs, everyone does, I've had a scimi start pulling away while I was chasing it, his issue that he wasn't as fast to the overheat. The list of cruisers that can run with one is pretty long, Arbi, Nvex, Nomen, ...pretty sure a nano-curse can, fleet stabber, stabber, Onerios ..I can't imagine when you would fit one that way, but it has the base speed...vaga and cynaball of course, diemost, sac, ceb, ..I think ishtar, Munnins are in the ballpark...I think 2400(ish) overheated, fleet scythe, belicose (doesn't even need a nano, just a MWD and an overheat button)

Need I go on?



Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Now we can also start making active tank PVE fits, it's even more funny to see how better it becomes as soon as you start


Giggle worthy. It PvEs too good is not a concern for ship balance.
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#143 - 2013-09-16 14:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Drake Doe wrote:

Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on.


You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#144 - 2013-09-16 15:47:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:

Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on.


You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi.

Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#145 - 2013-09-16 15:56:49 UTC
I think part of the problem is that in addition to being basically a large cruiser, it has a set of bonuses that are universally useful.

Most other ships have at least one bonus that is situationally useful...for example, active tank bonuses, web bonuses, target painter bonuses, micro jump drive bonuses (lolmarauders) ....even tracking and resist bonuses, in the case of sniping platforms. All of those things come in handy some of the time, but not all of it. But with the machariel, in addition to it being a big cruiser with battleship tank, there is not a single situation where its bonuses do not come in handy. As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%.

thhief ghabmoef

Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#146 - 2013-09-16 16:16:16 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%.


What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2013-09-16 16:17:00 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy.


this made me lol
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2013-09-16 16:19:07 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-09-16 16:19:21 UTC
All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#150 - 2013-09-16 16:28:35 UTC
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%.


What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway.

That would be relevant if all drones moved

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#151 - 2013-09-16 16:42:53 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!

Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible.
Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#152 - 2013-09-16 16:44:31 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "


All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed.

P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-09-16 17:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
tbh i dont really care if it gets nerfed anymore... ill just get a vargur....

that being said i dont see how the machariel makes such a dire difference to the game.

Ive lived in hisec mostly and rarely seen machariels

Ive lived in null sec for a short time (3 months maybe?) and the only mach i heard about was one that my alliance mates found ratting and blew up.

(But omg wait its a machariel cant it just fly away? Guess not sry)

Its not as if we get harrassed by fleets of machariels everyday becuase they are the go to ship for everything in eve is it?

Ive never even seen a mach fleet.

sry I tell a small lie another member of our alliance had an officer fit 1600? dps mach that could not break the tank on a near perfect skilled rattler. (but wait its a mach cant it just....no it couldnt)

its a rarely used ship as it is. If its SOOO excellent why isnt everyone and their mother sporting a machariel?
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2013-09-16 17:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Drake Doe wrote:



Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.



Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything.

....and then....neuts
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#155 - 2013-09-16 17:28:15 UTC
I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2013-09-16 17:29:28 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention.


:(
Lilliana Stelles
#157 - 2013-09-16 17:30:32 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!

Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible.


IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local.

If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design.

The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes.

It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons.

And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling.

ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II.
My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials.

Not a forum alt. 

Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#158 - 2013-09-16 17:33:41 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!



Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case.


Quote:
While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago.




"Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2013-09-16 17:36:06 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel.
Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?


this please!



Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case.


Quote:
While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago.




"Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance.


oh right i guess thats why i see so many machs out there...
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#160 - 2013-09-16 17:47:16 UTC
Mra Rednu wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "


All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed.

P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then.