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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1961 - 2013-09-04 15:47:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TheFace Asano wrote:
I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now.


That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo).


Oh yeah, a smart bomb range bonus.
Brilliant.
Love to see how that will work in fleets.
I know, we will space all ships out at least 10 km apart.

Oh wait, ships are slower than bricks now.


Maybe a bonus to smartbomb damage instead?

Another idea might be to allow for the installation of a secondary system of weapons. Each would get a bonus to the secondary system of weapons at small size.

Example Vargur

100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage (was 100% bonus to tractor beams)
Remove the drone bay to balance this

Example Kronos:

100% bonus to light drone damage (was 100% bonus to tractor beams)
25 / 75 bandwith / bay (-2 highslot, total of 6 which leaves one utility highslot after bastion module)

and the same could be done for the other 2 as well, drones for the Paladin just like the Kronos and rocket launcher / light missile launcher for the Golem. I would say RLML for the Golem but that would be a little op.

I have always secretly wanted this option on all my battleships.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#1962 - 2013-09-04 15:48:11 UTC
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1963 - 2013-09-04 15:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hell Bitch
These changes look awesome, good enough to warrant the purchase of a Paladin to compliment (but never replace) my Nightmare. I do however have a couple of questions and concerns.

1) When transforming into bastion super star destroyer mode, is the ship functional, can i fire my guns and lock stuff etc, or do I have to wait out a duration timer? Same goes for the de-transformation I suppose.

2) bastion module fuel. Please make the bastion module require cap to activate, even if its pathetic like 1 unit per cycle. Cap warfare is going to be big business against these beasts, however it is foreseeable that if your shield tanked you'd forgo the cap injector entirely for ASB's, this creates disparity between the effect of cap warfare against armour tanked marauders (who almost certainly will be cap injected) and shield tanked marauders.

3) will it be possible to at least align when in bastion mode, the last thing you want is your super cool transformerthingy of death firing at all weird angles and looking a bit crap.

4) As these are available on the internal test server, what is the range of a bastion'd up Pulse Paladin shooting conflag, with all V relevant skills, 2 TC's and 1 T2 locus rig with a 5% optimal hardwiring. Forget Tachs, that's what the Nightmare is for, conflag is gonna be this seasons new black.

5) As the Vargur already looks like a giant space gun, can it please transform into megatron :D

I really hope these changes make it live some day. Forget all the whiners, look how many people commented in the HAC thread stating that you weren't being creative enough, and now look what happens when you are creative.

Keep up the good work.
Maaloc
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1964 - 2013-09-04 15:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Maaloc
So, as a result of you haphazard rebalances we now have the situation when fractional battleships are almost the same in pve as the marauders. In my opinion, you should reward players for the time they've spent learning the neccesary skills and getting isk to by these rather expensive skills...but instead you are proposing this Shocked

You must have probably forgoten, but there's not only high-secs. This ****** rebalance of yours is a nice kick in the balls for those who use marauders in low- and null-secs and in wh-space: using this bastion module is kinda dangerous since one minute is more than enough to probe such a big ship and light up a cyno on your mission site. And without this module we get slightly castrated versions of the ships we already have.

And MJD. All marauders are tanked as hell. Why the hell would they need to use MJD in PvE? It's simply redundant. And I seriously doubt they will find any use in PvP when a middle-sized gang of cheap nagas/tengues/etc can easily **** your maradeurs just with a couple of curses (the ships I mean) even if the maradeurs are in siege-mode.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1965 - 2013-09-04 15:55:40 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1966 - 2013-09-04 15:57:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.


Not strictly better, just more of a general progression from T1 without any outright specialization. Right now I'd bet they're going to be like Attack Battleships. Less tank that Marauders, no special bonuses, a bit more gank and speed.

Battle Cube wrote:
yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.

The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1


I would wait for the re-balance on that >.>

And it's actually not significantly less training time to use at equal effectiveness. For a Pirate Battleship to be "maxed" you need the same support and weapons skills as a Marauder, in some cases more like with the Rattlesnake. You also need 2 Battleship skills to 5, where as with Marauders you need 1 BS to 5 and then Marauders to 5.

Except that you only need to train that once and you have access to any Marauder you have BS 5 for so when you have all 5 BS skills the difference comes out to about a month between the Bastion mod and Marauders 5 on a plan optimized for Marauders.

Beyond that Pirate ships are pretty much next up on the block, either before, after or at the same time as the Black-Ops Battleships. Since we've got 2 more balancing devs who currently don't have active threads my bet would be that in about a week or two when they get back from vacation we'll see a Black Ops and some version of a Pirate ships thread (given the other Battleship hulls being on the block they may start with battleships rather than frigates)


You are saying you need both BS skills to 5 in order to match the effectiveness of a marauder? Yeah.... i dont think so. You can outperform current marauders with a pirate bs with bs levels to 4. And its not that the marauder should be better - no - its that it should have a role in which is performs not only well - but better then other ships of equal or less value.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1967 - 2013-09-04 15:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.
Maaloc
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1968 - 2013-09-04 15:58:58 UTC
And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game!
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1969 - 2013-09-04 15:59:09 UTC
Since CCP is never going to give a damage bonus to bastian, taking away drone bay and bandwidth is a little heavy handed. Allowing the use of 3 or 4 heavy drones (at least with gallente and amarr since they are locked into a single damage profile) would make the ships more comparable to the equally expensive pirate battleships. A good tradeoff for this would be to make the drone bay equal to the bandwidth, so you have to choose between 3 or 4 heavy drones and having light drones.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1970 - 2013-09-04 15:59:51 UTC
Claire Raynor wrote:
Hi All,

I hope I haven't set the tone in some small way for this thread from my first ever first on the front page. I said I didn't see this helping me in PvE because I don't think this Marauder hull design is going to help me do what I do better, I have an alt and mobility in missions is important for what I do.

There is a lot of nagative stuff in this thread but there are also a lot of posts, esspecially earlier on, where people's first reaction was that of, "Wow cool". I think it's nice that CCP are putting stuff into the game that is a bit different.

As I've said in other Features and Ideas threads that were trying to predict what the Marauder update would consist of is that my current navy faction battleships give almost as high DPS and higher tank whilst being faster than the old Marauders. Now the Marauders can have high tank but zero mobility - but I like to use spider tank setups - which is the origin of my initial comment.

HOWEVER

My old beloved Mega Navy Issue does 556 at 39.6Km+36Km and tanks 905DPS travels at 499 m/s (I don't drone)
My potential new Kronos will do 600 at 39.6Km+54Km and tanks 941DPS travels at 439 m/s (I still won't drone)

The Tank is augmented by my on-field CS but it needs to be good to start with in case the CS has an accident like what happened once.

I won't use the Bastion module because I like to Spider Tank.
I won't use the tractor beams or salvagers because I Noctis.

HOWEVER!!!!! I now get to fit three Large Armour Repair Systems - Which DOES help my Spider tank setup - and I can Dump the Web for another Booster! And I'll have a MASSIVE cargo hold for my booster charges! Yay.

So the Marauders are now better for me - simply because they get a Falloff bonus. And they may be worth the price tag too.


the falloff bonus is only during bastion mode...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1971 - 2013-09-04 16:00:03 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me


TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.

In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.

I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1972 - 2013-09-04 16:01:18 UTC
I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.

How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.

lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1973 - 2013-09-04 16:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


christ with the webs already i think webs and especially 10% bonuses are OP in general

i think this change is just going backwards and reducing the specialisation ... i dislike giving all T2 ships better base resists .. just because their T2 doesn't mean they should have better tank than T1... and it tends to trample on navy more aswell

A slight nerf to the resists to 25% might be all that's needed and active tank bonuses make more sense with the salvage bonuses and the bastion module itself... why have you come to this conclusion ??? most of the feedback in this thread is a load of nonsense anyway that should be ignored

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1974 - 2013-09-04 16:06:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Now with this admission I can see the web bonuses on the other ships being reduced to 7.5%. We saw a similar "trickle down" effect from the Ishtar's to the Domi's bonuses, and I could very much see the 90% web bonuses being affected in the future.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1975 - 2013-09-04 16:09:56 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
This may come as a shocker, I know, but not all ships are designed to be solo ships. If you're flying a Marauder solo, then you're an idiot if you enter "'can't move' mode."

I know its tempting to create scenarios that prove your point when you post, but you at least have to make them believable.


Sorry to burst your bubble but any non industrial ship can be used for solo pvp. People that rely on skill tend to not rely on a fleet.

I truly do hope you have experienced eve outside of a fleet What?
I'm sure Capitals disagree. But as long as you're saying that any subcap can theoretically do solo PVP, regardless if they're effective at it or not, well, of course I agree with that. And by that, Marauders can solo pvp as well. Just as well as any ewar ship can, or a Logi ship, etc. Also, lol...your ego is so large it's comical. "People that rely on skill tend to not rely on a fleet."

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1976 - 2013-09-04 16:10:02 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me


TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.

In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.

I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...


cool thing about the interdiction feild is that the mjd will still work.

so yes i will be using these quite often in stain doing lev iv missions. also for pve i more then likely will not have a tsb on but for pvp i will.

if you think you can find me by all means.

and honestly i dont mind loosing a mid slot. if it means i will survive.

i would envision PL taking advantage of these ships...

Titan Brige them in... go into siege and proceed to kill everything.

how much can a kronos tank anyways with a LAAR and faction tank? i would bet a bunch.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#1977 - 2013-09-04 16:12:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


HALF yay, this feels a bit better, Golem with webs *-*! now that's a PVP warship! bring then to me! I forgive you for crippling my drones!

as a suggestion about the MJD but why not instead change it to MWD speed? either way, MWDs give marauders the signature of an station so they still will be vulnerable, but that way they can maneuver to get that web to use and will become way more useful for missions as well.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1978 - 2013-09-04 16:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update. Posted: 2013.09.04 15:58

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.



You now have my blessing to marry CCP Falcon

Zeus Maximo wrote:
2013.09.04 15:26
An idea that I might endorse:
All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.

In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away. You would then treat this ship on the field like you would any vindi or bhaal.


Might need to send my resume' in to ccp.....

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1979 - 2013-09-04 16:18:02 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Now with this admission I can see the web bonuses on the other ships being reduced to 7.5%. We saw a similar "trickle down" effect from the Ishtar's to the Domi's bonuses, and I could very much see the 90% web bonuses being affected in the future.


seriously 90% web with scram = death

but 82.5% i dunno that would be more balanced i guess.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1980 - 2013-09-04 16:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: TheFace Asano
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.


The amount of local tank you can gain with the mode will be pretty insane especially for the vargur and golem with ASB, not to mention you will be able to fight back as well. I think the use is niche, but if your friends come in and take out the opposition you will still be tanking them before you die (depending on the fleet that drops on you). A small gang will have a hard time putting out enough dps to break the tank, depending on the comp and fleet size and how long it takes reinforcements to show up. This has much less to do with your own ship and more to do with your alliance and corp.

Maybe the Bastion mode could have a signal distortion element that clears it off directional scanners and reduced ability to being probed down? That sounds OP to me, though.

You get 30% resists accross all tank, which is very powerful. Didn't a bunch of crying already happen for the loss of 1% / level on a bunch of ships? EDIT (too late!!!)