These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#1921 - 2013-09-04 11:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Edora Madullier
The Djego wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....

It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around.
Not working as intended.


It is not even useful for pve, at least for people that don't over tank every hull or use them for PVE with RR like WH or Incs.


I disagree. I run a tachyon Paladin and can't wait to be able to tear through guristas without being jammed a single time, Serpentis without being damped, Sansha without being TD'ed, while being able to get to a far away acceleration gate quickly thanks to the bonused MJD. Furthermore, with the fitting I'm using now, it'll get 74km optimal with Multifrequency.

However, I used to run a Vargur pre TE-nerf, and I've got to admit the arty fits I tried on EFT are pretty disappointing when compared to the tachyon Paladin.

Edit : In addition, I'll replace the useless (because of the loss of velocity factor bonus) web I've put on my Paladin with a sensor booster and then lock farther and/or faster (considering the buffed base lock range of the hull). Taking into account the very recent buff to local armor repairers, it will become a tanking beast dealing death on the battlefield.

Of course, I'm writing strictly about PvE (missions and plexes, not incursions (at least not Vanguards)).
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1922 - 2013-09-04 12:07:05 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:

ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.

How are they worse? Speed? Well, they have more cap regen (mostly) than they did, so it'll be easier (or cheaper if you're using a cap booster) to run an MWD for an extended period, so in real terms they won't be much slower, even discounting the MJD option.

How else might they be worse?

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1923 - 2013-09-04 12:18:12 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers).


The recharge rate won't be 'slightly faster' once you allow for the increased cap size, but almost double. That's huge, as with only four lasers eating cap the Paladin will be able to afford to run an active tank very aggressively or run an MWD constantly, giving it more mobility than its low speed suggests. So, this extra cap makes the Paladin both mobile and tanky.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1924 - 2013-09-04 12:31:18 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Haven't lasers already got the best tracking of all guns? Just curious as I don't use guns much and therefore don't know much about how good which gun type tracks.


Tachyons have the best tracking and damage of all long range guns, but the worst range. Megapulses have by far the best range and second-best damage of short range guns, but the worst tracking.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#1925 - 2013-09-04 12:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Marauders:

Question 1: "What are we trying to create?", or "what problem are we trying to solve?"

Start there.

Bastion does not solve a known problem in PVE.
The MJD bonus does not solve a known problem in PVE.

A small and arguable reduction in level 4 mission time is not the basis of a complete 3-month long project to overhaul an entire ship class. That would be a mis-allocation of resources - like space dolls.

"What are we trying to create?", "what problem are we trying to solve?"

Respectfully, would someone on the CSM or in the dev team kindly be able to give me a convincing answer to this?

Once we know what you are trying to create, we are in a position to judge objectively whether the proposal represents a valid solution.

At the moment, it looks just like change for change's sake. That is not a good foundation for progress.

Progress begins with a strongly defined objective.

"competing with faction battleships" is not an objective. That's a comparison. What do you actually want the players to be able to achieve with marauders? What activities do you wish to specifically disallow?

Start there. Rational discourse can then follow.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1926 - 2013-09-04 13:09:07 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
And guess what? It's feedback time!


97 pages of suggestions, but I get the distinct impression that we're talking about "limited feedback" and that the core design is more or less set in stone (since the only 'tweak' thus far has been with respect to the skill for Bastion). So I guess it's on to the next class of ships (Black-Ops?) Btw, you went from suck to blow with that link to the new animation...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1927 - 2013-09-04 13:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.

Assuming no-one molests you, soloing C4s or even C3s in one of these returns more ISK/hour than any current PvE activity. C3/C4 sleeper battleships are worth on average about 15-20m ISK EACH, and these ships can fit enough gank to kill one in under a minute while still easily tanking the site. It's much better ISK/hour than capital escalations in a C6 and has probably far less risk, as C4s are very sparsely populated.

Sleeper frigs orbit at 5-6.5km and can all be smartbombed with faction smartbombs, sleeper cruisers die in 3 volleys and 1200 DPS kills a sleeper battleship in about a minute. You can probably exceed 300m/hour if you find an untouched wormhole with 30 sites up.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#1928 - 2013-09-04 13:14:32 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.

Assuming no-one molests you, soloing C4s or even C3s in one of these returns more ISK/hour than any current PvE activity. C3/C4 sleeper battleships are worth on average about 15-20m ISK EACH, and these ships can fit enough gank to kill one in under a minute while still easily tanking the site. It's much better ISK/hour than capital escalations in a C6 and has probably far less risk, as C4s are very sparsely populated.

Sleeper frigs orbit at 5-6.5km and can all be smartbombed with faction smartbombs, sleeper cruisers die in 3 volleys and 1200 DPS kills a sleeper battleship in about a minute. You can probably exceed 300m/hour if you find an untouched wormhole with 30 sites up.


but but but there is no other PVE besides null anoms and L4s

andandand it's less cost-effective than slowly and tediously grinding the same sleeper sites in a 1.5bil ISK Tengu with **** for dps

somehow

.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1929 - 2013-09-04 13:16:31 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Marauders:

Question 1: "What are we trying to create?", or "what problem are we trying to solve?"

Start there.

Bastion does not solve a known problem in PVE.
The MJD bonus does not solve a known problem in PVE.

Correct, be individually they don't solve any known PVE problem.
If the two are used in conjunction with each other, meaning both are on the ship, it allows safer solo completion of high end PVE sites.
The problem that still needs to be addressed is how one will take a billion isk ship out to these sites without becoming kill mail fodder for every ship they pass.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1930 - 2013-09-04 13:26:22 UTC
Roime wrote:

andandand it's less cost-effective than slowly and tediously grinding the same sleeper sites in a 1.5bil ISK Tengu with **** for dps

somehow


And frankly, the Tengu is more likely to be ganked, because it'll be on site longer, and the longer you're out ffom under your POS shields, the greater the chance of someone seeing you and rolling out the gank team.
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#1931 - 2013-09-04 13:31:20 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.


I've only run a few L5s in fleet a long time ago, so I may be mistaken, but don't most of L5s have powerful neuts in them? I was under the impression that the Bastion module would not immune the marauder to cap warfare. Was I wrong?
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1932 - 2013-09-04 13:31:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
And guess what? It's feedback time!


97 pages of suggestions, but I get the distinct impression that we're talking about "limited feedback" and that the core design is more or less set in stone (since the only 'tweak' thus far has been with respect to the skill for Bastion). So I guess it's on to the next class of ships (Black-Ops?) Btw, you went from suck to blow with that link to the new animation...


Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.

5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts.

And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1933 - 2013-09-04 13:33:54 UTC
So let's see...Marauders lose their 90% web bonus.
Now people scream this makes the Vindicator's 90% bonus OP compared to other BS's.
So that goes next.

But wait, what about the cruiser based Vindicator: the Vigilant. For the sake of fairness, it must go to.
While were at it, how can anyone fight a Daredevil that has a 90% web. Bye bye.

So now a slow moving cruiser and frigate (Daredevil is not that slow, but not fast enough when this webifer bonus is removed), that have to be close to their targets to do damage, are rendered useless.

Idiocy, pure idiocy.
Instead of giving MORE ships the 90% bonus, the null sec game designers are doing the opposite.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1934 - 2013-09-04 13:34:57 UTC
see, i was right. Big smile

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1935 - 2013-09-04 13:35:58 UTC
Edora Madullier wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.


I've only run a few L5s in fleet a long time ago, so I may be mistaken, but don't most of L5s have powerful neuts in them? I was under the impression that the Bastion module would not immune the marauder to cap warfare. Was I wrong?


The Paladin has 12,500 base capacitor and 89+20km range with Scorch and 3 range mods. DPS tanking the energy neut sentries is trivial, since you are immune to tracking disruptiors.
Novah Soul
#1936 - 2013-09-04 13:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Novah Soul
Debora Tsung wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers).


Funny, time and time again I read posts from amarr pilots that complain about amarr battleship cap issues and not being able to fire all their guns without running dry on cap (I can only imagine how this feels as I am using a golem most of the time) and now you get one ship that can do exactly that and what do I read again... complaints. -..-

I was thinking the same thing as you. I am actually happy for the cap use bonus. I absolutely hate using cap boosters in pve (aside from the fact my internet connection is garbage and I'd lose pve ships at least once a week without a permarun tank) so this should all but alleviate this and give me a good laser platform for missioning if I choose to buy one. \o/

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1937 - 2013-09-04 13:56:07 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.

5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts.
And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots.


I think you missed the point, which is that out of 97 pages of feedback - only one really minor change to the skill has been implemented (and not the one that was in fact suggested by players). It just seems like feedback is more of a placebo for players than anything else.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1938 - 2013-09-04 14:18:18 UTC
I think I have a simple solution to the problem most people have with the Bastion Mode.

You can deactivate the Bastion mode, but it will give you a 60 second debuff of the following:
-50% Optimal
-50% Falloff
-50% Missile Velocity
Cannot reactivate Bastion Mode for duration

This will allow escape if necessary, but if you deactivate it's like having tracking disruption, so you can't deactivate to move without severely gimping yourself.

Lets be honest, its going to be hard to justify a ship of this price-tag that is a sitting duck for hot drops and can be locked down by a cloaky frig no matter the isk you can make. Not to mention if the whole idea for PVP is that it will be able to position on the field where it wants to and shift on the fly, you can't force it into a mode that makes it immobile.

I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1939 - 2013-09-04 14:23:52 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now.


That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1940 - 2013-09-04 14:28:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TheFace Asano wrote:
I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now.


That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo).


Oh yeah, a smart bomb range bonus.
Brilliant.
Love to see how that will work in fleets.
I know, we will space all ships out at least 10 km apart.

Oh wait, ships are slower than bricks now.