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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Author
loles
Perkone
Caldari State
#1941 - 2013-09-04 14:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: loles
As a PvE mission runner that already uses the MJD in many BS hulls I don't understand the combination of bonuses.

MJD is meant to run 100km away and kill from distance (which always forces you to fit a sebo/signal ampl to be able to target things, and also maintains sentries out of range in geddon/rattle), boosting targeting range would be nice for marauders to combine with MJD). In missions where I use a MJD, I fit a light tank (unless there are gankers around), as at 100km NPCs barely/never hit you.

Following this reasoning, which is a fact imo (NPCs barely hit you at 100km), what is the purpose of combining the ability to jump away from damage, and fitting an ultra tank? You shouldn't be receiving damage. Or is it meant to combat gankers? Because if that is the case, any armor tanker will die (cap neutralizers) and any shield ship will laugh (2x XL Ancill + passive resists). I would either go for MJD and something else, or heavy tank and sit in damage range. They seem to not combine for PvE.

I also don't understand why the complains about webs. Run at 100km and hit frigs while approaching, or use your drones. Why would you even bother hitting a frig orbiting you at 5km? It's a waste of gun time. Just launch light drones and kill something bigger.

On another point, current state of tractor beams never felt appealing enough for me to train a marauder. With the introduction of MJD, it feels very wrong. 40km range for a ship that can kill at 100km? So you kill ships and then spend 4x the time attempting to salvage? Either make it worth it or remove it, but don't leave it as it is.

Last, drone bay. You want to leave 25mb/s? fine, but let us carry 2 sets of light drones, and 1 set of salvage drones, 75m3? Which is the reason not to let us carry 75m3? are we meant to die (of boredom with the ultra tank) if our drones are killed and we get a scrambling frig?

On another side, when balancing any BS I'd rethink what CCP's intention is for a future adjustment of missions, at current state they feel quite boring/repeatable/undynamic.

Nonetheless, I like the change even as posted. The ship morphing will surely be awesome, and mini-dreads idea sounds very cool. Please keep it and make it live :)
marVLs
#1942 - 2013-09-04 14:36:17 UTC
It should be that when You transform with badass animation, cool sounds, effects etc. it should mean: "oooohhhh shiiii negotiations are over!!! RUUUNN!!!!" Cool

...but we get instead: "oh look he fail and transform, now call rest of fleet, he won't espace...
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1943 - 2013-09-04 14:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
At the current state, and in their new form, marauders will never be fleet comp worthy.

CCP isn't fixing their past issues and now they are creating future ones.


Marauders need:

sensor strength buff
paladin/kronos need 90% web back
t2 resists since they are "advanced battleships"
larger drone bay if possible


Marauders don't need:

More repping power
Smaller drone bay
To be immobile
MJD bonus


My reasoning for 90% web:
Paladin: Large lasers can't track unless target is slowed down up close. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up
Golem: Missiles always track and have distance, shield ship = faster
Vargur: Great tracking and distance, shield ship = faster
Kronos: Blasters have horrible range and need ship locked down. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up


edit: my complaints are for PVP

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1944 - 2013-09-04 14:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Change the skill to Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration, require strontium use for Bastion and instead of reducing the marauder to a dead stop apply a 100% velocity bonus while in Bastion mode. Scrap the tractor beam bonus and drone bay in lieu of higher sensor strength.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#1945 - 2013-09-04 14:47:13 UTC
Well, niche uses, yes.

Better overall PVE, for all/most high end PVE content IMHO - And yes the Bastion mod could be used safely enough for anoms and Plexes, if you got good intel channels.

Nulsec/lowsec PVP? Never used a MJD doing that, will probably be a rare sight, still...

Hisec PVP now? Suspect/Killright bait ship, oh, YES, sure. Station games? INDEED (though I ferociously hate this...). And yeah, it's been mentioned somewhere, EWAR immunity make POS removal much easier.

And, oh, yeah, YEAH, bring that Falcon/Blackbird, and other EWAR ships, yes, please.

As for the Grid/CPU and +1 high slot, also makes it easier to use in pvp, smartbombs and NOS/Neuts being much easier to fit - Although I don't know if the NOS changes will benefit a Marauder with their cap increase.

Golem: I agree with previous comments that the Painter bonus should go (as are the Webs) and be replaced by an Explosion Velocity bonus, or whatever else.

I do not like the reduced Drone capabilities, the gods knows Marauders already don't outshine other BS, regular or Navy/Pirates in the dps department anyway, but I can live with it I guess, just don't see the point of it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1946 - 2013-09-04 14:49:06 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Golem: I agree with previous comments that the Painter bonus should go (as are the Webs) and be replaced by an Explosion Velocity bonus, or whatever else.


+1, explosion radius would be preferable.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1947 - 2013-09-04 14:52:09 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Aaron Kyoto wrote:
So, did CCP just inadvertantly the anti-gank ship?

Example:

Some plucky carebear decides to transport alot of shinies in his marauder, because it has a big enough cargo hold. AFK autopilot while he plays solitaire, etc. Soon, some bloodthirsty ganker spots him and gets his friends together to attempt it. Warning beeps cause the marauder to look at his screen. Shields at 20%?! Bastion mode. Engage.

Tank until Concord saves the day.


Lol, more like squad of Tornadoes and he's in his pod instantly. You'd have to factor in Bastion for the gank in-case he's paying attention though.

At best I'd call it a very expensive way to troll gankers if used how you're suggesting.

Props for one of the most inventive and plausible niche uses proposed so far though!

I was doing the math for how much EHP you could get out of a Paladin with Bastion activated, 2 Deadspace EANM, a DC II and a rack of HG Slaves.

It's pretty sweet.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1948 - 2013-09-04 14:54:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So let's see...Marauders lose their 90% web bonus.
Now people scream this makes the Vindicator's 90% bonus OP compared to other BS's.
So that goes next.

But wait, what about the cruiser based Vindicator: the Vigilant. For the sake of fairness, it must go to.
While were at it, how can anyone fight a Daredevil that has a 90% web. Bye bye.

So now a slow moving cruiser and frigate (Daredevil is not that slow, but not fast enough when this webifer bonus is removed), that have to be close to their targets to do damage, are rendered useless.

Idiocy, pure idiocy.
Instead of giving MORE ships the 90% bonus, the null sec game designers are doing the opposite.
Probably the biggest fail in reasoning and biggest "sky is falling" QQ I have read in a long time.

I have no idea why people think that the removal of the 90% web bonuses from two Marauders suddenly means that all 90% web bonuses are going to be removed. The web bonuses of the Serpentis or Blood Raider lines are part of their racial flavor; they make those ships unique. The web bonuses on the Paladin and Kronos were means to an end. CCP has decided that there's a better, more unique means to an end with the Bastion module and range projection.

So, if you want high dps, 90% webs, go with a Vindi. If you want super tank, ewar immunity, 3 utility highs, go with a Kronos. It's not rocket science. The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.

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Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1949 - 2013-09-04 14:54:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.

5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts.
And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots.


I think you missed the point, which is that out of 97 pages of feedback - only one really minor change to the skill has been implemented (and not the one that was in fact suggested by players). It just seems like feedback is more of a placebo for players than anything else.


Yeah, what I was trying to say, the maybe 2% good suggestions are being drowned in a sea, no an ocean of tears accompanied by whailing hurricanes of whine threads.

So... yeah. Totally awesome.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1950 - 2013-09-04 15:05:42 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Yeah, what I was trying to say, the maybe 2% good suggestions are being drowned in a sea, no an ocean of tears accompanied by whailing hurricanes of whine threads.

So... yeah. Totally awesome.


Yes, the tears/whining to actual suggestion ratio is certainly way off.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1951 - 2013-09-04 15:07:29 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.


Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP.

Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1952 - 2013-09-04 15:14:30 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Marauders need:

t2 resists since they are "advanced battleship"

Marauders don't need:

More tank


Wat
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1953 - 2013-09-04 15:15:07 UTC
Kind of makes me wish for a 7.5% web-bonus instead of the 10% for vindicator/blood/serpentis cruiser/frigs.

Otherwise, 90% webs won't be missed with all that range now.

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1954 - 2013-09-04 15:17:28 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.


Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP.

Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP
They have a place in PVP. Bastion provides super tank, ewar immunity and 3x utility highs. They don't have a place in Incursions, however, since Bastion disables remote assistance.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#1955 - 2013-09-04 15:26:25 UTC
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1956 - 2013-09-04 15:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.


Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP.

Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP
They have a place in PVP. Bastion provides super tank, ewar immunity and 3x utility highs. They don't have a place in Incursions, however, since Bastion disables remote assistance.


Yeah, shoot at marauder from 20k until it enters "can't move" mode, then burn out of point range and warp off if need be.

It's not hard to avoid something that can't move.

An idea that I might endorse:
All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.

In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away. You would then treat this ship on the field like you would any vindi or bhaal.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#1957 - 2013-09-04 15:33:07 UTC
I bought my sons (nearly 3) new boots for the winter, they reacted like this.

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1958 - 2013-09-04 15:35:59 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Yeah, shoot at marauder from 20k until it enters "can't move" mode, then burn out of point range and warp off if need be.

It's not hard to avoid something that can't move.

An idea that I might endorse:
All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.

In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away. You would then treat this ship on the field like you would any vindi or bhaal.
This may come as a shocker, I know, but not all ships are designed to be solo ships. If you're flying a Marauder solo, then you're an idiot if you enter "'can't move' mode."

I know its tempting to create scenarios that prove your point when you post, but you at least have to make them believable.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1959 - 2013-09-04 15:44:59 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:



I was doing the math for how much EHP you could get out of a Paladin with Bastion activated, 2 Deadspace EANM, a DC II and a rack of HG Slaves.

It's pretty sweet.


Now do the math for an ASB fit vargur. Obviously ASB boosted EHP isnt the same thing as "true EHP" but this thing with a blue pill, even without crystals or a tengu/claymore booster, is absolutely ridiculous. Add deadspace and crystals for a literally unkillable station undock toy.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1960 - 2013-09-04 15:46:27 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
This may come as a shocker, I know, but not all ships are designed to be solo ships. If you're flying a Marauder solo, then you're an idiot if you enter "'can't move' mode."

I know its tempting to create scenarios that prove your point when you post, but you at least have to make them believable.


Sorry to burst your bubble but any non industrial ship can be used for solo pvp. People that rely on skill tend to not rely on a fleet.

I truly do hope you have experienced eve outside of a fleet What?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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