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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2561 - 2013-08-28 19:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
yup forums still bullshit.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2562 - 2013-08-28 19:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Cade Windstalker wrote:


As to your mathematical concerns, there are no infinities anywhere in that equation because most programming math libraries will evaluate 0/X as 0, not infinity.

Second, the whole formula in parentheses is the exponent of 0.5, meaning a smaller target is, in-fact, harder to hit than a bigger one, however if the transversal is zero the entire thing comes out to x^0 = 1 anyway so your example is moot.

Specifically addressing your Talos related concerns... One, that's not how the tracking formula works, two, yes frigates are always going to be better at speed tanking larger guns, they're smaller and faster than other ships. Speed-tanking HACs have already proven to be hilariously effective in small fleets though and this will be even more effective against your hypothetical Talos because they'll be able to out-run him and keep range on his guns more effectively than if they were AB fit against a MWD fit Talos with webs.



Actually I screwed up the math, the smaller expontial gets the closer to 1 you get with a rational exponent

Regardless, 50% off the sig doesn't make add much to the targeting solution, but it certainly doesn't hurt either your solution there are three parts to that equation and they only have to equal all but ensure a hit (depending on the resolution of random generator) essentially its a 20% decreased chance to hit....for that factor.

.....don't let your transferal come down, ever.
Cade Windstalker
#2563 - 2013-08-28 19:51:30 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


As to your mathematical concerns, there are no infinities anywhere in that equation because most programming math libraries will evaluate 0/X as 0, not infinity.

Second, the whole formula in parentheses is the exponent of 0.5, meaning a smaller target is, in-fact, harder to hit than a bigger one, however if the transversal is zero the entire thing comes out to x^0 = 1 anyway so your example is moot.

Specifically addressing your Talos related concerns... One, that's not how the tracking formula works, two, yes frigates are always going to be better at speed tanking larger guns, they're smaller and faster than other ships. Speed-tanking HACs have already proven to be hilariously effective in small fleets though and this will be even more effective against your hypothetical Talos because they'll be able to out-run him and keep range on his guns more effectively than if they were AB fit against a MWD fit Talos with webs.



Actually I screwed up the math, the smaller expontial gets the closer to 1 you get with a rational exponent

Regardless, 50% off the sig doesn't make add much to the targeting solution, but it certainly doesn't hurt either your solution there are three parts to that equation and they only have to equal all but ensure a hit (depending on the resolution of random generator) essentially its a 20% decreased chance to hit....for that factor.

.....don't let your transferal come down, ever.


This can be, quite literally, a massive decrease in damage taken, it depends entirely on what weapons system you're being shot by.

It's not going to be better than an Afterburner in all situations but if it were that would be a bit over-powered. The point is that it opens up new play styles and fitting options for the ships.

Lets take a look at your Null Talos example. I've fitted mine out in EFT with the All 5s Profile, 2 Tracking Enhancers, and a Tracking Computer.

We're going to be rather cruel to our HAC buddy here and low-ball his speed and not give him any Command Boosts to his sig res. Speed with MWD is 1500 (for reference the current Deimos with all 5s does 1700 and after the changes will go even faster) and base sig radius is 140 which is a little above average for the new HACs.

The sig resolution on a Null Talos is 400 and with our setup tracking is .09937 (the TC has a script). Optimal at 15km, falloff out to 25km.

So lets look at DPS numbers with and without this bonus:


  • Without the bonus orbiting at 20km gives out HAC 85.499% damage
  • With sig reduction at 20km we take 58.073% damage.


This is 67.9% of the damage taken without the sig bonus.

Lets bring the orbit in to 15km, still outside scram range but with no falloff from the Talos


  • Without the bonus at 15km we're taking 79.515% of the Talos's damage.
  • With the bonus at 15km we're taking 39.978% of the Talos's damage.


This is a 50% decrease in damage from the Talos orbiting at it's optimal.

And today's lesson is to check your numbers before making assumptions.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2564 - 2013-08-29 14:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Cade Windstalker wrote:

This is a 50% decrease in damage from the Talos orbiting at it's optimal.

And today's lesson is to check your numbers before making assumptions.


You see that is just the thing.

I wasn't making assumtions. I took, the Sac, Cerb, Vaga, and Diemost to SiSi....and attacked everything that wasn't pegged down.....with a variety of fits,

Then took a variety of battlecruisers, Drake, Myrm, Brutix, Cyclone, and Bringer and went hunting HACs.

Your kiting Diemost isn't fast enough to speed tank a nano-talos, I smashed a few of them because they set orbit, so I just burned the other direction, they are in structure and/or repping furiously two cycles later. The Sac has the same issue complete with the fact that a HAM Sac basically can't kite, they have to run to close to the edge of point range unbonused (fleets were bugged so I couldn't see with proper links running) Oh and a rail diemost has a hard time hitting ANYTHING that can get close to it. I may hit but its pretty weak.....otherwise hanging out at 20km with medium blasters is kind lol, you'll get a couple hits in but they are rarely for any real damage.

Take something that can actually tank like a myrm/cyclone (remember local reppers got buffed too) I had a sac that first tried to brawl me...and got ruined....then tried to kite me and go ruined worse. Brawl a Brutix with a Diemost and watch what happens, that applies dual rep, buffer armor, AND shield nano....and that is shooting into strong resists for the BC.

The Cerb actually can kite, the eagle ....lol eagle.

Vaga is a little slower but works well as a heavy tackle, and a stupidly fast heavy tackle.....till you have to reload (really active shields with 4 mids da fuq)

Sac's had HUGE issues with Tornados, it was basically plink at them and run away, they either have to bail or get blown up.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2565 - 2013-08-29 15:17:19 UTC
so what you're saying is that the HACs are good, but not OP. I'd say that makes them just about right.

I found them to be much more effective against battleships than against battle cruisers. I think that's about right.

battleships beat BC
BC beats HAC
HAC beats battleship

rock, paper, scissors.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2566 - 2013-08-29 15:32:54 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

battleships beat BC
BC beats HAC
HAC beats battleship

rock, paper, scissors.



That's a reasonable statement. Get a +1

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Cade Windstalker
#2567 - 2013-08-29 17:52:17 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

This is a 50% decrease in damage from the Talos orbiting at it's optimal.

And today's lesson is to check your numbers before making assumptions.


You see that is just the thing.

I wasn't making assumtions. I took, the Sac, Cerb, Vaga, and Diemost to SiSi....and attacked everything that wasn't pegged down.....with a variety of fits,

Then took a variety of battlecruisers, Drake, Myrm, Brutix, Cyclone, and Bringer and went hunting HACs.

Your kiting Diemost isn't fast enough to speed tank a nano-talos, I smashed a few of them because they set orbit, so I just burned the other direction, they are in structure and/or repping furiously two cycles later. The Sac has the same issue complete with the fact that a HAM Sac basically can't kite, they have to run to close to the edge of point range unbonused (fleets were bugged so I couldn't see with proper links running) Oh and a rail diemost has a hard time hitting ANYTHING that can get close to it. I may hit but its pretty weak.....otherwise hanging out at 20km with medium blasters is kind lol, you'll get a couple hits in but they are rarely for any real damage.

Take something that can actually tank like a myrm/cyclone (remember local reppers got buffed too) I had a sac that first tried to brawl me...and got ruined....then tried to kite me and go ruined worse. Brawl a Brutix with a Diemost and watch what happens, that applies dual rep, buffer armor, AND shield nano....and that is shooting into strong resists for the BC.

The Cerb actually can kite, the eagle ....lol eagle.

Vaga is a little slower but works well as a heavy tackle, and a stupidly fast heavy tackle.....till you have to reload (really active shields with 4 mids da fuq)

Sac's had HUGE issues with Tornados, it was basically plink at them and run away, they either have to bail or get blown up.


So, from the sound of things:


  • Getting in close with a brawling fit ship in a kiting/range control ship is still a bad idea. Working as intended Big smile
  • Long range guns have tracking issues up close, as always. Working as intended Big smile
  • Short-range guns are bad at long range engagements. Working as intended Big smile
  • Trying to play Heavy Tackle with a local-active tank and no support isn't really a good idea with an ASB. Working as intended Big smile


From the sound of it you could still beat a lot of things that were strong against your ship inherently if they screwed up and had some things that you were inherently strong against as well. Sound like good balance to me.

PS. For those Tornadoes try getting in close if they're Arty fit or running at medium-short range if they're auto-fit. Large guns as a whole don't track well and the 50% MWD sig bonus only really shows its strength closer in on a ship like that. If they're arty-fit especially you have ~15 seconds between cycles meaning you can time your MWD cycles to their guns and turn it off between cycles to land harder hits. (though I somehow doubt you were having much trouble with an Arty-Tornado in a MWD fit Sac)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2568 - 2013-08-29 18:16:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
(though I somehow doubt you were having much trouble with an Arty-Tornado in a MWD fit Sac)


I can tell you from experience that you certainly wouldn't want to fly straight down its barrels. You'll want to spiral in unless you can get there within 3 cycles of his guns Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2569 - 2013-08-29 20:35:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
so what you're saying is that the HACs are good, but not OP. I'd say that makes them just about right.

I found them to be much more effective against battleships than against battle cruisers. I think that's about right.

battleships beat BC
BC beats HAC
HAC beats battleship

rock, paper, scissors.



I'm saying HAC does very little I can't do for half price with a battlecruiser.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2570 - 2013-08-29 20:37:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

This is a 50% decrease in damage from the Talos orbiting at it's optimal.

And today's lesson is to check your numbers before making assumptions.


You see that is just the thing.

I wasn't making assumtions. I took, the Sac, Cerb, Vaga, and Diemost to SiSi....and attacked everything that wasn't pegged down.....with a variety of fits,

Then took a variety of battlecruisers, Drake, Myrm, Brutix, Cyclone, and Bringer and went hunting HACs.

Your kiting Diemost isn't fast enough to speed tank a nano-talos, I smashed a few of them because they set orbit, so I just burned the other direction, they are in structure and/or repping furiously two cycles later. The Sac has the same issue complete with the fact that a HAM Sac basically can't kite, they have to run to close to the edge of point range unbonused (fleets were bugged so I couldn't see with proper links running) Oh and a rail diemost has a hard time hitting ANYTHING that can get close to it. I may hit but its pretty weak.....otherwise hanging out at 20km with medium blasters is kind lol, you'll get a couple hits in but they are rarely for any real damage.

Take something that can actually tank like a myrm/cyclone (remember local reppers got buffed too) I had a sac that first tried to brawl me...and got ruined....then tried to kite me and go ruined worse. Brawl a Brutix with a Diemost and watch what happens, that applies dual rep, buffer armor, AND shield nano....and that is shooting into strong resists for the BC.

The Cerb actually can kite, the eagle ....lol eagle.

Vaga is a little slower but works well as a heavy tackle, and a stupidly fast heavy tackle.....till you have to reload (really active shields with 4 mids da fuq)

Sac's had HUGE issues with Tornados, it was basically plink at them and run away, they either have to bail or get blown up.


So, from the sound of things:


  • Getting in close with a brawling fit ship in a kiting/range control ship is still a bad idea. Working as intended Big smile
  • Long range guns have tracking issues up close, as always. Working as intended Big smile
  • Short-range guns are bad at long range engagements. Working as intended Big smile
  • Trying to play Heavy Tackle with a local-active tank and no support isn't really a good idea with an ASB. Working as intended Big smile



None of which are the least bit applicable beyond a gate camp.

The HACs are still **** and are going to remain so.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2571 - 2013-08-30 19:42:10 UTC
I have used that heavy drone bonus on the vexor navy - it's devastating, allowing ogres to track webbed frigates with ease.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2572 - 2013-08-30 21:39:01 UTC
you don't always get what you want.
but if you try sometimes,
you might get what you need.

~ Mick Jagger, and many others

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
dR PaNouKLa
Perkone
Caldari State
#2573 - 2013-08-30 22:26:40 UTC
wow... so much theory, how the vaga can orbit the talos and receive half of the damage... for full whole 6 ASB cycles...
of course when there is a second pilot involved in the battle; that evil t1 tackler frig, or a rapier, or an arazu, or whatever with a scrambler... you die in a second.


"7.5% bonus to shield boost amount"
like there is a possible fitting that you could use a NON anciliary shield booster...


It must be the most ridiculous bonus ever.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2574 - 2013-08-30 23:54:33 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I have used that heavy drone bonus on the vexor navy - it's devastating, allowing ogres to track webbed frigates with ease.



They always could with a pair of Omnis.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2575 - 2013-08-30 23:55:31 UTC
dR PaNouKLa wrote:
wow... so much theory, how the vaga can orbit the talos and receive half of the damage... for full whole 6 ASB cycles...
of course when there is a second pilot involved in the battle; that evil t1 tackler frig, or a rapier, or an arazu, or whatever with a scrambler... you die in a second.


"7.5% bonus to shield boost amount"
like there is a possible fitting that you could use a NON anciliary shield booster...


It must be the most ridiculous bonus ever.


It's not awesome, but it does keep the ship alive for another 30 seconds if you somehow manage to get caught.

Fear not though, vagabond sales will not dop - it's still an immensely fast range-keeper and tackler with no peer.

It was already streets ahead of the other HACs (except perhaps the ishtar) before the rebalance. Now that it can run the MWD forever, take 25% less damage while doing so and repair what little damage it will incur while freely disengaging, it's still going to be the 1st choice of lowsec pirates all over New Eden.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2576 - 2013-08-30 23:59:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I have used that heavy drone bonus on the vexor navy - it's devastating, allowing ogres to track webbed frigates with ease.



They always could with a pair of Omnis.


Well now you can fit just one omni and have room for MWD, web, scram and cap booster / target painter / ASB / shield booster etc.

I have seen all of the above options used. The ishtar is now no longer either long or short range. It can be both in one fit.

Shame it lost a high slot though - that would have been useful for a NOS to help a local tank option...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Asa Shahni
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#2577 - 2013-08-31 07:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Asa Shahni
You removed the cap recharge bonus on the sac !

Im not good with numbers but i hope those changes to the capacitor are the bonus added to the hull like you did with the speed bonus on the vaga.

Only thing i dont like about it though (even if that HML bonus is useless it doesnt replace anything so its fine) is the 6th high slot just put it in the lows ..the best you can fit on it is a small neut and tbh with that velocity bonus + javs + hard tackle you can deal with small stuff without too much problems since the small neut will do next to nothing to other targets.

If you do that we will gain a bit of tank (ehp is low on that thing) or a bit of dps without nerfing the EHP/rep amount too much.

I do love the drone bay though and the new sig radius change is nice GJ \o/

Rest i dont fly and zealot stay the same so i have nothing to say on those.
Cade Windstalker
#2578 - 2013-08-31 11:01:50 UTC
Asa Shahni wrote:
You removed the cap recharge bonus on the sac !

Im not good with numbers but i hope those changes to the capacitor are the bonus added to the hull like you did with the speed bonus on the vaga.

Only thing i dont like about it though (even if that HML bonus is useless it doesnt replace anything so its fine) is the 6th high slot just put it in the lows ..the best you can fit on it is a small neut and tbh with that velocity bonus + javs + hard tackle you can deal with small stuff without too much problems since the small neut will do next to nothing to other targets.

If you do that we will gain a bit of tank (ehp is low on that thing) or a bit of dps without nerfing the EHP/rep amount too much.

I do love the drone bay though and the new sig radius change is nice GJ \o/

Rest i dont fly and zealot stay the same so i have nothing to say on those.


I know you said you're not good with numbers but you can definitely get a medium-neut on the Sac, albeit with a bit of difficulty. Also the cap bonus was definitely rolled into the hull (all the HACs now have very good cap).
Asa Shahni
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#2579 - 2013-08-31 16:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Asa Shahni
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Asa Shahni wrote:
You removed the cap recharge bonus on the sac !

Im not good with numbers but i hope those changes to the capacitor are the bonus added to the hull like you did with the speed bonus on the vaga.

Only thing i dont like about it though (even if that HML bonus is useless it doesnt replace anything so its fine) is the 6th high slot just put it in the lows ..the best you can fit on it is a small neut and tbh with that velocity bonus + javs + hard tackle you can deal with small stuff without too much problems since the small neut will do next to nothing to other targets.

If you do that we will gain a bit of tank (ehp is low on that thing) or a bit of dps without nerfing the EHP/rep amount too much.

I do love the drone bay though and the new sig radius change is nice GJ \o/

Rest i dont fly and zealot stay the same so i have nothing to say on those.


I know you said you're not good with numbers but you can definitely get a medium-neut on the Sac, albeit with a bit of difficulty. Also the cap bonus was definitely rolled into the hull (all the HACs now have very good cap).


Who said something about a medium neut ?

And how not being good with nombers as something to do with fitting a ship ?

Im talking about a bonus transformed into stats which is very different than CPU and PW so do the math and show me your calculations when your finish im very interested to see how you do that ^^

I tried before and tbh i dont want an 800mm and genos instead of my slaves just to fit a module so medium neut is not an option and i still believe that they should move that high slot since nobody would nerf his tank that much to fit a meddium neut and the small is next to useless even more so with the new bonus so say just get rid of it.

For the cap bonus im happy to hear that.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2580 - 2013-08-31 19:49:48 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. Please keep it civil people!

2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)