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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Randy Wray
That's Really Witty M8
Shattered Foundations
#2581 - 2013-08-31 22:45:44 UTC
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

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Cade Windstalker
#2582 - 2013-08-31 23:40:31 UTC
Asa Shahni wrote:
Who said something about a medium neut ?

And how not being good with nombers as something to do with fitting a ship ?

Im talking about a bonus transformed into stats which is very different than CPU and PW so do the math and show me your calculations when your finish im very interested to see how you do that ^^

I tried before and tbh i dont want an 800mm and genos instead of my slaves just to fit a module so medium neut is not an option and i still believe that they should move that high slot since nobody would nerf his tank that much to fit a meddium neut and the small is next to useless even more so with the new bonus so say just get rid of it.

For the cap bonus im happy to hear that.


Depends on how you're fitting it, if you're plate-tanking then sure you're going to be a bit tight on PG. Several people have mentioned medium-neut solo and small gang fits in this thread though. There was a very good debate over that high slot about 10 or so pages back (not an exact estimate) and about as many people seem glad to have the utility high as want it to be a low slot.
Capt Canada
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#2583 - 2013-09-01 12:44:37 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.



The sacriledge is much better.


The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case

Well.. I just hope when you reach the recons you do not forget to make the Huggin the same thing you made the bellicose...


The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth.
That sort of logic really doesn't bode well, especially from an elected representative of the player base. Why put a bonus on a ship that does not in reality have the ability to use it? Or as is the case here, pigeon holes it to a less than ideal specific fit.
As for the poor cousin, the munin, it actually comes out with less possible dps than it has now (albeit from an unbonused launcher). It is still unable to fit 720 arties with anything resembling a decent tank let alone the now bonused MWD.

It seems most of the "rebalancing" of hac's is simply going to just leave most of them right where they are now. Overpriced underpowered speciality ships
Cade Windstalker
#2584 - 2013-09-01 13:50:25 UTC
Capt Canada wrote:
mynnna wrote:

The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth.
That sort of logic really doesn't bode well, especially from an elected representative of the player base. Why put a bonus on a ship that does not in reality have the ability to use it? Or as is the case here, pigeon holes it to a less than ideal specific fit.
As for the poor cousin, the munin, it actually comes out with less possible dps than it has now (albeit from an unbonused launcher). It is still unable to fit 720 arties with anything resembling a decent tank let alone the now bonused MWD.

It seems most of the "rebalancing" of hac's is simply going to just leave most of them right where they are now. Overpriced underpowered speciality ships


I don't think I would particularly advise you toward heavy artillery on the Muninn with a MWD fitted since your tracking is going to be abysmal. That said I'm looking at a test fit right now with 720s and not seeing any particular fitting issues, are you somehow trying to squeeze a 1600 plate on there or something?

Also the shield boosting bonus on the Vagabond opens up some interesting fits and it doesn't particularly lose anything since the speed bonus was rolled into the hull. Overall this can't really even be classified as a trade-off, the Vagabond just gains something more or less for free. Mynnna is entirely correct, no one is forcing you to make use of the bonus and it's only pigeon holing the ship if you let it.

If you'll recall T2 are supposed to be somewhat specialized ships and only about 20% better than T1, aka not cost effective but more pilot effective, so what you're saying is that these are working as intended (even if you don't like how they're working).
Capt Canada
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#2585 - 2013-09-01 15:40:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Capt Canada wrote:
mynnna wrote:

The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth.
That sort of logic really doesn't bode well, especially from an elected representative of the player base. Why put a bonus on a ship that does not in reality have the ability to use it? Or as is the case here, pigeon holes it to a less than ideal specific fit.
As for the poor cousin, the munin, it actually comes out with less possible dps than it has now (albeit from an unbonused launcher). It is still unable to fit 720 arties with anything resembling a decent tank let alone the now bonused MWD.

It seems most of the "rebalancing" of hac's is simply going to just leave most of them right where they are now. Overpriced underpowered speciality ships


I don't think I would particularly advise you toward heavy artillery on the Muninn with a MWD fitted since your tracking is going to be abysmal. That said I'm looking at a test fit right now with 720s and not seeing any particular fitting issues, are you somehow trying to squeeze a 1600 plate on there or something?

Also the shield boosting bonus on the Vagabond opens up some interesting fits and it doesn't particularly lose anything since the speed bonus was rolled into the hull. Overall this can't really even be classified as a trade-off, the Vagabond just gains something more or less for free. Mynnna is entirely correct, no one is forcing you to make use of the bonus and it's only pigeon holing the ship if you let it.

If you'll recall T2 are supposed to be somewhat specialized ships and only about 20% better than T1, aka not cost effective but more pilot effective, so what you're saying is that these are working as intended (even if you don't like how they're working).
I would look to see what implants are in the clone you are fitting an arty munin with.. All 5's, No implants 5 X 720 1 X 800T2 plate, 1 X 10mn Experimental MWD = 1496 PG out of an available 1450. This till leaves 3 empty mids, 4 empty lows. With an AB you can fit 720's but then like the vaga it is all choice as to whether you want to use the bonuses being applied in the update.. I was looking to see if the changes would mean the ship could effectively be used as a sniper.
Given the Munin has and is keeping a 10% optimal range bonus, is getting +25k to lock range (now 80k), slightly more cap and speed, the idea it might be a viable sniper was worth looking into.
The answer is still a resounding NO.

Ahh, actually CCP is pigeon holing it with the bonus. The user has the option to use it or not. Value for isk with most HACS is still not there.

Somewhat specialised is very much an understatement.
Cade Windstalker
#2586 - 2013-09-01 15:56:07 UTC
Capt Canada wrote:
I would look to see what implants are in the clone you are fitting an arty munin with.. All 5's, No implants 5 X 720 1 X 800T2 plate, 1 X 10mn Experimental MWD = 1496 PG out of an available 1450. This till leaves 3 empty mids, 4 empty lows. With an AB you can fit 720's but then like the vaga it is all choice as to whether you want to use the bonuses being applied in the update.. I was looking to see if the changes would mean the ship could effectively be used as a sniper.
Given the Munin has and is keeping a 10% optimal range bonus, is getting +25k to lock range (now 80k), slightly more cap and speed, the idea it might be a viable sniper was worth looking into.
The answer is still a resounding NO.

Ahh, actually CCP is pigeon holing it with the bonus. The user has the option to use it or not. Value for isk with most HACS is still not there.

Somewhat specialised is very much an understatement.


Then use a fitting rig for Powergrid to get that extra buffer, otherwise go for a resist based tank.

These are powerful ships, the Muninn and Vagabond have both been used to great effect before the patch and will likely continue to be used post-patch since they still compare favorably to other HACs.

As for your sniper, I think it's probably worth looking into but you're going to have to make trade-offs between HP, speed, and fittings.
Jan'z Kolna
Society Of Mutual Adoration
#2587 - 2013-09-01 16:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jan'z Kolna
so ccp goes ahead with those awful changes

what irks me the most is tanking bonuses - sacri , deimos, eagle vaga

why aren't they all like ishtar or muninn , all bonuses to weapons? all bonuses always useful

now deimos in ahac gang - lose a bonus
vagabond without shield booster ? - lose a bonus
wanna armour tank your eagle? oh, be serious

'nobody forces you to use a bonus'
by that kind of logic, laser vagabonds should be ubiquitous ... or shield tanked sacrileges .. or any ship with any fit

what is a bonus for if it is to be ignored?


and all hacs still outdpsed , or outrun , or both , by those stupid ABCs

ABCs are real hacs , in all but name
Capt Canada
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#2588 - 2013-09-02 00:32:40 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Capt Canada wrote:
I would look to see what implants are in the clone you are fitting an arty munin with.. All 5's, No implants 5 X 720 1 X 800T2 plate, 1 X 10mn Experimental MWD = 1496 PG out of an available 1450. This till leaves 3 empty mids, 4 empty lows. With an AB you can fit 720's but then like the vaga it is all choice as to whether you want to use the bonuses being applied in the update.. I was looking to see if the changes would mean the ship could effectively be used as a sniper.
Given the Munin has and is keeping a 10% optimal range bonus, is getting +25k to lock range (now 80k), slightly more cap and speed, the idea it might be a viable sniper was worth looking into.
The answer is still a resounding NO.

Ahh, actually CCP is pigeon holing it with the bonus. The user has the option to use it or not. Value for isk with most HACS is still not there.

Somewhat specialised is very much an understatement.


Then use a fitting rig for Powergrid to get that extra buffer, otherwise go for a resist based tank.

These are powerful ships, the Muninn and Vagabond have both been used to great effect before the patch and will likely continue to be used post-patch since they still compare favorably to other HACs.

As for your sniper, I think it's probably worth looking into but you're going to have to make trade-offs between HP, speed, and fittings.
Thing is, I've been in munin sniper fleets, their biggest drawback was lack of mobility and ability to tank more than a rifter, post patch nothing is changing. As for the vaga, it is no more than an overpriced (albeit slightly better specced) stabber. IMO, the navy stabber at less than half the price is the better option.
Personally, the idea that the vaga is now comparable to other hacs makes it less appealing, prior to the patch the vaga did have a niche place but now it is just like every other hac, not quite good enough to justify the extra isk needed unless you don't worry about spending it.
Maybe part of the problem is, T1 cruisers work very well in their given roles and are cheap, HAC's do the same job just a little bit better but is it enough to justify the huge price differences.. For me personally, probably not.
As for the fitting trade off's with the munin, I'll buy a cane, put the same fit on it, have 3 times the EHP and save myself a bundle of isk.

With prices going up the way they are tech fleets are likely to become a thing of the past for all but a few
Cade Windstalker
#2589 - 2013-09-02 01:29:00 UTC
Jan'z Kolna wrote:
so ccp goes ahead with those awful changes

what irks me the most is tanking bonuses - sacri , deimos, eagle vaga

why aren't they all like ishtar or muninn , all bonuses to weapons? all bonuses always useful

now deimos in ahac gang - lose a bonus
vagabond without shield booster ? - lose a bonus
wanna armour tank your eagle? oh, be serious

'nobody forces you to use a bonus'
by that kind of logic, laser vagabonds should be ubiquitous ... or shield tanked sacrileges .. or any ship with any fit

what is a bonus for if it is to be ignored?


and all hacs still outdpsed , or outrun , or both , by those stupid ABCs

ABCs are real hacs , in all but name


Just no. Out-DPS'd maybe, but that's sort of their thing. They don't fit as much tank as a HAC though, and they don't out-run them either.

Lets take a look at this second claim specifically:


  • Naga: 195 m/s base speed
  • Oracle: 200 m/s base speed
  • Talos: 220 m/s base speed
  • Tornado: 225 m/s base speed


Comparing directly by race we have:


  • Eagle: 180 m/s base and Cerberus 220 m/s
  • Sacrilege: 200m/s and Zealot: 210 m/s
  • Ishtar: 195 m/s and Deimos: 230m/s
  • Muninn: 210 m/s and Vagabond: 295 m/s


So we have a total of three cases where a HAC is actually slower than its Attack Battlecruiser counterpart. All three of these are sniper setups, the Ishtar with Sentry drones and the Muninn and Eagle with their respective long range weapon systems. Also these ships all tank better than Attack Battlecruisers and have much lower signature radius, allowing them to speed tank where as if the Attack Battlecruisers tried this they'd end up as an expanding cloud of vapor rather quickly.
Cade Windstalker
#2590 - 2013-09-02 01:52:10 UTC
Capt Canada wrote:
Thing is, I've been in munin sniper fleets, their biggest drawback was lack of mobility and ability to tank more than a rifter, post patch nothing is changing. As for the vaga, it is no more than an overpriced (albeit slightly better specced) stabber. IMO, the navy stabber at less than half the price is the better option.
Personally, the idea that the vaga is now comparable to other hacs makes it less appealing, prior to the patch the vaga did have a niche place but now it is just like every other hac, not quite good enough to justify the extra isk needed unless you don't worry about spending it.
Maybe part of the problem is, T1 cruisers work very well in their given roles and are cheap, HAC's do the same job just a little bit better but is it enough to justify the huge price differences.. For me personally, probably not.
As for the fitting trade off's with the munin, I'll buy a cane, put the same fit on it, have 3 times the EHP and save myself a bundle of isk.

With prices going up the way they are tech fleets are likely to become a thing of the past for all but a few


The question is more whether or not a HAC gang meeting a T1 Cruiser gang is going to win or not. Generally I'd say the HACs are going to win every time assuming most other things being equal.

As for the cost, HAC prices are actually going down.

The Muninn is about as expensive as it was a year ago.

The Vagabond is actually cheaper. (type 360 into and hit Show)

If they continue to hold steady then their real cost vs average income will actually go down and they'll become more viable. Since T2 production prices are overall likely to go down in the next six months due to the moon rebalance HACs seem likely to see more use not less.

Estoppel
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2591 - 2013-09-02 05:58:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)



Just read the patch notes over at http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1 -- what happened to the increase in Zealot CPU?

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2592 - 2013-09-02 09:53:08 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Jan'z Kolna wrote:
so ccp goes ahead with those awful changes

what irks me the most is tanking bonuses - sacri , deimos, eagle vaga

why aren't they all like ishtar or muninn , all bonuses to weapons? all bonuses always useful

now deimos in ahac gang - lose a bonus
vagabond without shield booster ? - lose a bonus
wanna armour tank your eagle? oh, be serious

'nobody forces you to use a bonus'
by that kind of logic, laser vagabonds should be ubiquitous ... or shield tanked sacrileges .. or any ship with any fit

what is a bonus for if it is to be ignored?


and all hacs still outdpsed , or outrun , or both , by those stupid ABCs

ABCs are real hacs , in all but name


Just no. Out-DPS'd maybe, but that's sort of their thing. They don't fit as much tank as a HAC though, and they don't out-run them either.

Lets take a look at this second claim specifically:


  • Naga: 195 m/s base speed
  • Oracle: 200 m/s base speed
  • Talos: 220 m/s base speed
  • Tornado: 225 m/s base speed


Comparing directly by race we have:


  • Eagle: 180 m/s base and Cerberus 220 m/s
  • Sacrilege: 200m/s and Zealot: 210 m/s
  • Ishtar: 195 m/s and Deimos: 230m/s
  • Muninn: 210 m/s and Vagabond: 295 m/s


So we have a total of three cases where a HAC is actually slower than its Attack Battlecruiser counterpart. All three of these are sniper setups, the Ishtar with Sentry drones and the Muninn and Eagle with their respective long range weapon systems. Also these ships all tank better than Attack Battlecruisers and have much lower signature radius, allowing them to speed tank where as if the Attack Battlecruisers tried this they'd end up as an expanding cloud of vapor rather quickly.


In a 1:1 between a deimos and a talos, I'll take the deimos thanks!
Ditto for sacrilege, vagabond, zealot, ishtar...

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#2593 - 2013-09-02 10:01:04 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

In a 1:1 between a deimos and a talos, I'll take the deimos thanks!
Ditto for sacrilege, vagabond, zealot, ishtar...

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!


Hahaha, at least you might get to fly the Deimos long enough around them to warp out though. The Talos would probably just disappear into a pile of scrap and expanding plasma. Lol
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#2594 - 2013-09-02 10:07:21 UTC
Capt Canada wrote:
I would look to see what implants are in the clone you are fitting an arty munin with.. All 5's, No implants 5 X 720 1 X 800T2 plate, 1 X 10mn Experimental MWD = 1496 PG out of an available 1450. This till leaves 3 empty mids, 4 empty lows. With an AB you can fit 720's but then like the vaga it is all choice as to whether you want to use the bonuses being applied in the update.. I was looking to see if the changes would mean the ship could effectively be used as a sniper.
Given the Munin has and is keeping a 10% optimal range bonus, is getting +25k to lock range (now 80k), slightly more cap and speed, the idea it might be a viable sniper was worth looking into.
The answer is still a resounding NO.

Ahh, actually CCP is pigeon holing it with the bonus. The user has the option to use it or not. Value for isk with most HACS is still not there.

Somewhat specialised is very much an understatement.


Here's an original thought for you:

Don't put a ******* 800 plate on a sniper fit Muninn. Use an LSE instead, and fill the lows with Gyros and TEs. Use your sniper fit as a sniper fit, and kite well outside the range of the things you're shooting at.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2595 - 2013-09-02 10:21:14 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


The question is more whether or not a HAC gang meeting a T1 Cruiser gang is going to win or not. Generally I'd say the HACs are going to win every time assuming most other things being equal.

As for the cost, HAC prices are actually going down.

The Muninn is about as expensive as it was a year ago.

The Vagabond is actually cheaper. (type 360 into and hit Show)

If they continue to hold steady then their real cost vs average income will actually go down and they'll become more viable. Since T2 production prices are overall likely to go down in the next six months due to the moon rebalance HACs seem likely to see more use not less.



This is interesting. I think it depends on the size of the fleets. Navy cruisers emit more dps, but are a lot more squishy.

The price movements could be 2 things:
1. oversupply of materiel
2. overexcited HAC enthusiasts have already bought and supply has caught up with demand.

I think the new HACs are great, and will be using them for specialist WH skirmishing and so on, but I still think I'd take a T1 cruiser on a 0-sec roam, purely on grounds of cost. You're going to lose it anyway, so better to lose 20M rather than 150!

If CCP can fix hotdrops so they are not so overwhelming, I'll take a HAC.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

To mare
Advanced Technology
#2596 - 2013-09-02 10:41:25 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

tbh i have less problem with the new munnin than the new vaga.

the munnin uts getting something very useful like an extra slot, the vaga just got nothing from this rebalance except for a slightly nerfed top speed and a useless bonus
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2597 - 2013-09-02 10:48:38 UTC
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

tbh i have less problem with the new munnin than the new vaga.

the munnin uts getting something very useful like an extra slot, the vaga just got nothing from this rebalance except for a slightly nerfed top speed and a useless bonus

Smile
It didn't get anything because it didn't need anything - it was already the most popular pvp HAC in the game.

The ship rebalance was about... rebalancing. Not indiscriminate buffing.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2598 - 2013-09-02 10:55:43 UTC
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

tbh i have less problem with the new munnin than the new vaga.

the munnin uts getting something very useful like an extra slot, the vaga just got nothing from this rebalance except for a slightly nerfed top speed and a useless bonus



The new vaga just massively obsoletes the newly buffed stabber... its sad really... since the other attack cruisers are still faster than their HAC versions.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2599 - 2013-09-02 11:01:03 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

tbh i have less problem with the new munnin than the new vaga.

the munnin uts getting something very useful like an extra slot, the vaga just got nothing from this rebalance except for a slightly nerfed top speed and a useless bonus



The new vaga just massively obsoletes the newly buffed stabber... its sad really... since the other attack cruisers are still faster than their HAC versions.


A 120 million ISK ship overshadowing a 10m isk ship in performance? Outrageous!

Blink

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2600 - 2013-09-03 13:26:21 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
To mare wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
one thing thats mentioned way too little in this thread is how bad the muninn still is.

tbh i have less problem with the new munnin than the new vaga.

the munnin uts getting something very useful like an extra slot, the vaga just got nothing from this rebalance except for a slightly nerfed top speed and a useless bonus

Smile
It didn't get anything because it didn't need anything - it was already the most popular pvp HAC in the game.

The ship rebalance was about... rebalancing. Not indiscriminate buffing.


Same thing was said about the Rifter and its **** now, popularity does not indicate effectiveness.

I've said it before;

The Vaga is a **** kiter.

Its still going to be a **** kiter.

It needs a second falloff bonus to be an effective kiter.

As anti-nano heavy tackle its now borderline OP because of XLASB/D180 fits.

GJ CCP