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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
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Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2541 - 2013-08-28 00:26:10 UTC
Glad to see the Munin getting a velocity buff, I which I could have used it with the dual nuets though.

But what's up with the vagabond speed nerf and tank buff? and really what's with speed nerfs to minmatar ships in general?

Stabber lost it's velocity mod
Vigile lost it's velocity mod
the cane lost a high and gained a low, I'm under the impression nano ships don't work so well without dual nuets. So this pretty much makes it an armor tanker.

I love minmatar ships specifically because they're effectiveness is solely dependent on their maneuverability.

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2542 - 2013-08-28 00:29:59 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Glad to see the Munin getting a velocity buff, I which I could have used it with the dual nuets though.

But what's up with the vagabond speed nerf and tank buff? and really what's with speed nerfs to minmatar ships in general?

Stabber lost it's velocity mod
Vigile lost it's velocity mod
the cane lost a high and gained a low, I'm under the impression nano ships don't work so well without dual nuets. So this pretty much makes it an armor tanker.

I love minmatar ships specifically because they're effectiveness is solely dependent on their maneuverability.



Does no-one fly the ships before posting on here?

The Vagabond didn't get a speed nerf. For anyone with heavy assault cruisers of 4 or less it got a speed buff. If you have HAC 5 it's essentially the same.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2543 - 2013-08-28 00:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Glad to see the Munin getting a velocity buff, I which I could have used it with the dual nuets though.

But what's up with the vagabond speed nerf and tank buff? and really what's with speed nerfs to minmatar ships in general?

Stabber lost it's velocity mod
Vigile lost it's velocity mod
the cane lost a high and gained a low, I'm under the impression nano ships don't work so well without dual nuets. So this pretty much makes it an armor tanker.

I love minmatar ships specifically because they're effectiveness is solely dependent on their maneuverability.



Does no-one fly the ships before posting on here?

The Vagabond didn't get a speed nerf. For anyone with heavy assault cruisers of 4 or less it got a speed buff. If you have HAC 5 it's essentially the same.



Actually I'm teching up for T2 cruisers right now, and no nav 5 = 125% to base speed

239 X nav 5 1.25 = 298 X vags 1.25x speed bonus = 373.4
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2544 - 2013-08-28 01:18:10 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:


Actually I'm teching up for T2 cruisers right now, and no nav 5 = 125% to base speed

239 X nav 5 1.25 = 298 X vags 1.25x speed bonus = 373.4


Pre 1.1 vaga with lvl 5 nav and hac 5 is 373.4 m/s as you stated. Post 1.1 vaga with same skills is 368.75 m/s

So you lost 4.6875 m/s base speed.... A big "boo hoo" from me to you on that one Roll
Violet Winters
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
SAMURAI SOUL'd OUT
#2545 - 2013-08-28 02:07:25 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?


So, make all Hacs for blob ware fare, and completely ignore small-scale stuff? yep sounds good.

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#2546 - 2013-08-28 02:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Violet Winters wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?


So, make all Hacs for blob ware fare, and completely ignore small-scale stuff? yep sounds good.



Well the fact is that 50% MWD bonus doesn't bring the sig down below large turrets, unlike AFs that made them pretty beast.

So aside from being un-crearative its a waste of a role bonus.
Cade Windstalker
#2547 - 2013-08-28 03:30:12 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Violet Winters wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?


So, make all Hacs for blob ware fare, and completely ignore small-scale stuff? yep sounds good.



Well the fact is that 50% MWD bonus doesn't bring the sig down below large turrets, unlike AFs that made them pretty beast.

So aside from being un-crearative its a waste of a role bonus.


Someone needs to review the Eve Turret Tracking Formula. For reference the bit you want to look for is where weapon signature resolution and target signature resolution are in a ratio to determine how tracking is affected.

So a 50% radius reduction means you're 50% harder to track.
Aus Unit727
Australia Federal Police
#2548 - 2013-08-28 06:18:08 UTC
If your going to give the deimos and vagabond active tank skill please please increase there cargo bay is it's actually viable. right now with ammo and what not I can only fit 7 navy 800's it's not enough.
Cade Windstalker
#2549 - 2013-08-28 07:11:23 UTC
Aus Unit727 wrote:
If your going to give the deimos and vagabond active tank skill please please increase there cargo bay is it's actually viable. right now with ammo and what not I can only fit 7 navy 800's it's not enough.


Or run an AAR?

They just buffed your local rep power so you should need to run your reps less and you have better cap and cap regen meaning less need for cap boosters in general. It's not like they switched tank types on you or something. You could always active tank a Deimos and you can still buffer or resist fit it, it's active tank just got better.

If every ship gave you everything you wanted there wouldn't be any trade-offs.
Wu1f
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2550 - 2013-08-28 11:26:41 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


Your not going to kite with hams in a sac, and without webs on your primary the dps is terrible.


M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).


Couple of things: It requires THREE fitting implants, your 98k ehp assumes that it won't get alpha'd of the field with that **** poor 17k EHP, and I could fit up a Cynabal that would do the job better for probably the same cost or less.


Yes, 17k ehp (more then a omen or a stabber) is totally going to get alphaed, if you dont like the implants, drop a low or a rigslot.

And no a cynabal can never match that, dont talk out of your ass.


i dont think you know how to fit an omen or a stabber then....infact all you do is talk angry crap even to the devs when fozzie called you out on the range bonus.

Get a Sac in close with HAMs, kiting zealots, more range on the cerb, better bonus for the ishtar, less tank on my deimos......wait what?!? ok back up i admit 4 mids is good-ish but i can make do with 3 i just need to stay alive longer then 20 seconds. eagles are just lols

i must admit im looking forward to this :)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2551 - 2013-08-28 11:37:05 UTC
Wu1f wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


Your not going to kite with hams in a sac, and without webs on your primary the dps is terrible.


M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).


Couple of things: It requires THREE fitting implants, your 98k ehp assumes that it won't get alpha'd of the field with that **** poor 17k EHP, and I could fit up a Cynabal that would do the job better for probably the same cost or less.


Yes, 17k ehp (more then a omen or a stabber) is totally going to get alphaed, if you dont like the implants, drop a low or a rigslot.

And no a cynabal can never match that, dont talk out of your ass.


i dont think you know how to fit an omen or a stabber then....infact all you do is talk angry crap even to the devs when fozzie called you out on the range bonus.

Get a Sac in close with HAMs, kiting zealots, more range on the cerb, better bonus for the ishtar, less tank on my deimos......wait what?!? ok back up i admit 4 mids is good-ish but i can make do with 3 i just need to stay alive longer then 20 seconds. eagles are just lols

i must admit im looking forward to this :)


Don't worry, that vagafit is wrong to start with :) Do it right, fit an AB, not an invuln, and two gyros/two TEs so your tracking isn't straight out of hades.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#2552 - 2013-08-28 12:11:05 UTC
Aus Unit727 wrote:
If your going to give the deimos and vagabond active tank skill please please increase there cargo bay is it's actually viable. right now with ammo and what not I can only fit 7 navy 800's it's not enough.


It's more than enough. Go and fly one, then comment.

The deimos has an awesome tank (for an armour ship). You will run out of ammo before you run out of cap boosters if you fly it efficiently.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

ComDoggy
Doomheim
#2553 - 2013-08-28 13:37:50 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Glad to see the Munin getting a velocity buff, I which I could have used it with the dual nuets though.

But what's up with the vagabond speed nerf and tank buff? and really what's with speed nerfs to minmatar ships in general?

Stabber lost it's velocity mod
Vigile lost it's velocity mod
the cane lost a high and gained a low, I'm under the impression nano ships don't work so well without dual nuets. So this pretty much makes it an armor tanker.

I love minmatar ships specifically because they're effectiveness is solely dependent on their maneuverability.



Does no-one fly the ships before posting on here?

The Vagabond didn't get a speed nerf. For anyone with heavy assault cruisers of 4 or less it got a speed buff. If you have HAC 5 it's essentially the same.



Its the Cruiser skill that gave the bonus to speed.
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#2554 - 2013-08-28 13:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Violet Winters wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?


So, make all Hacs for blob ware fare, and completely ignore small-scale stuff? yep sounds good.



Well the fact is that 50% MWD bonus doesn't bring the sig down below large turrets, unlike AFs that made them pretty beast.

So aside from being un-crearative its a waste of a role bonus.


Someone needs to review the Eve Turret Tracking Formula. For reference the bit you want to look for is where weapon signature resolution and target signature resolution are in a ratio to determine how tracking is affected.

So a 50% radius reduction means you're 50% harder to track.



First you should check some numbers.

The sig of a large turret is 400m the sig of a Sac under MWD is 475, means that factor is ADDING to the chance to hit. Is it easier to hit than a sac in TQ currently.

No?

That formula can't be correct as written. x/infinity = 0 and infinity/x = infinity. They way that formula is written there there turret sig over target sig having a bigger signature would HURT your shot.

Example a 400m (large) turret against a 1600m target, stationary in optimal for that area of the equation you would have (0.5)^.0625 = 0.03125 For a 400m target you would have (0.5)^1^2 =0.5 You would be more likely to hit the SMALLER target which I don't think that is the intent.

Call me crazy.

Eitherway, the sig isn't really enough to have the same effect that it has on AFs because a 100m frigate can usually outrange small weapons and nothing else can easily hit that., with the HAC medium weapons are no issue due to sig, and large turrets aren't going to have THAT hard of a time because all you have to save you from getting blasted is speed, the signature is still larger than the turrets that it has to worry about....i.e. that tracking bonused neutron Talos.
Jeffrey Donovan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2555 - 2013-08-28 15:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Donovan
Phaade was right the whole idead of that post of mine is that the cerbus should be pigeon hole into one dmg
give 10%knetic or 7.5% knetic and only %5 to all others i dont mind!!

btw is it just me or does
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Mournful%20Conciousness

look alittle like keanu reeves

HMM!!!


btw i just mentioned cap cause alot of peeps double or tripple rep and sac just like a myrm atleast in the past :)
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#2556 - 2013-08-28 17:23:46 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mr Doctor wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).



Since cap bonus was HAC wide the Sac really lost its cap bonus.


It still has a very significant edge in cap/s compared to all other hacs (even the deimos at 6.2/s)

Claiming that it does not have a cap advantage is simply wrong.



DERP
Space Bacon
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#2557 - 2013-08-28 17:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Bacon
Vaga 5th mid... how can you call something "specialized" when T1 ships are better than it in it's "specialized" role... Seriously?

Ishtar bonuses: You are a genius! Take one bonus and divide it into two! :|

Other than that everything is great.
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#2558 - 2013-08-28 18:08:36 UTC
Wu1f wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


Your not going to kite with hams in a sac, and without webs on your primary the dps is terrible.


M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).


Couple of things: It requires THREE fitting implants, your 98k ehp assumes that it won't get alpha'd of the field with that **** poor 17k EHP, and I could fit up a Cynabal that would do the job better for probably the same cost or less.


Yes, 17k ehp (more then a omen or a stabber) is totally going to get alphaed, if you dont like the implants, drop a low or a rigslot.

And no a cynabal can never match that, dont talk out of your ass.


i dont think you know how to fit an omen or a stabber then....infact all you do is talk angry crap even to the devs when fozzie called you out on the range bonus.

Get a Sac in close with HAMs, kiting zealots, more range on the cerb, better bonus for the ishtar, less tank on my deimos......wait what?!? ok back up i admit 4 mids is good-ish but i can make do with 3 i just need to stay alive longer then 20 seconds. eagles are just lols

i must admit im looking forward to this :)



Did you actually say less tank on the Deimos??

Good God.
Cade Windstalker
#2559 - 2013-08-28 18:29:20 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Aus Unit727 wrote:
If your going to give the deimos and vagabond active tank skill please please increase there cargo bay is it's actually viable. right now with ammo and what not I can only fit 7 navy 800's it's not enough.


It's more than enough. Go and fly one, then comment.

The deimos has an awesome tank (for an armour ship). You will run out of ammo before you run out of cap boosters if you fly it efficiently.



Don't forget the global buff to armor repair modules! :D (and active armor tankers everywhere went "wait, we missed that bit!" and there was much rejoicing)

Onictus wrote:

First you should check some numbers.

The sig of a large turret is 400m the sig of a Sac under MWD is 475, means that factor is ADDING to the chance to hit. Is it easier to hit than a sac in TQ currently.

No?

That formula can't be correct as written. x/infinity = 0 and infinity/x = infinity. They way that formula is written there there turret sig over target sig having a bigger signature would HURT your shot.

Example a 400m (large) turret against a 1600m target, stationary in optimal for that area of the equation you would have (0.5)^.0625 = 0.03125 For a 400m target you would have (0.5)^1^2 =0.5 You would be more likely to hit the SMALLER target which I don't think that is the intent.

Call me crazy.

Eitherway, the sig isn't really enough to have the same effect that it has on AFs because a 100m frigate can usually outrange small weapons and nothing else can easily hit that., with the HAC medium weapons are no issue due to sig, and large turrets aren't going to have THAT hard of a time because all you have to save you from getting blasted is speed, the signature is still larger than the turrets that it has to worry about....i.e. that tracking bonused neutron Talos.


Okay, I am going to step through this to try to explain why this is a 50% tank buff using a Tech 1 10MN Micro Warpdrive.

First off, yes, any increase in signature radius increases your chances to be hit. However any increase in speed decreases these chances (the first bit of the formula) by increasing your traversal on the target.

A Tech1 Microwarpdrive increases your velocity by 500% and also increases your Signature Radius by 500%. This means that overall you don't actually gain much in terms of tank but you do gain a little at very close ranges.

If you cut the signature increase in half then suddenly you have quite a good ratio of sig increase to traversal with the advantage that you can still kite and maintain range on your opponent quite effectively.

If you use a Faction or Deadspace MWD that already has a bonus to its MWD sig bloom or max speed increase then you're looking at an even more effective trade-off.

As to your mathematical concerns, there are no infinities anywhere in that equation because most programming math libraries will evaluate 0/X as 0, not infinity.

Second, the whole formula in parentheses is the exponent of 0.5, meaning a smaller target is, in-fact, harder to hit than a bigger one, however if the transversal is zero the entire thing comes out to x^0 = 1 anyway so your example is moot.

Specifically addressing your Talos related concerns... One, that's not how the tracking formula works, two, yes frigates are always going to be better at speed tanking larger guns, they're smaller and faster than other ships. Speed-tanking HACs have already proven to be hilariously effective in small fleets though and this will be even more effective against your hypothetical Talos because they'll be able to out-run him and keep range on his guns more effectively than if they were AB fit against a MWD fit Talos with webs.

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2560 - 2013-08-28 19:10:21 UTC
Off-topic post removed.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

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