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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Author
sten mattson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1741 - 2013-08-07 16:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
Danny John-Peter wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(


Fly a navy omen if you want an omen hull that can deal with frigate crap.


I'd love to if i could get the old nomen damage back


Nano Zealots are actually one of the most effective anti-tackle ships I have every flown, reasonable tracking and immense projection means that most tackle doesn't get in close.

Its not a ship that can solo unfortunately.


I dont care much for nano zealots. I want to be able to fly solo in an armor , possibly active tanked zealot. And to do that i would need some way to dealt with frigs that is not lock them and pray to empress jamyl that they die before they reach you.

Zealot and eagle are also the *only* hacs that can be completely shut down by a single frig with a scram and a TD. And even then the eagld has a choice to forgo tank to put in more webs. The zealot has none of that.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#1742 - 2013-08-07 16:59:09 UTC
Why not include an additional role bonus: 50% to Afterburner speed.

Give HACS much needed flexibility, and I like the bonus for MWD's, but wheres the active tanking love?
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
#1743 - 2013-08-07 17:01:55 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
I see no reason to ask for the muninn to be changed to missiles. It has its own role, and artillery is it. That said, it would benefit from a bit more power grid so you could fit 720mm IIs and a 1600mm plate without both rig slots using an ancillary current router. Otherwise, it will remain only a Black Legion toy, not having enough damage/tank to make even an anti-support fleet. If intended as small gang/solo play.... Well, the minmatar already have the vagabond, don't they?


Because there is no Minmatar missile hac and the Muninn as it stands probably won't get much use.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
#1744 - 2013-08-07 17:11:31 UTC
They could just make the vaga the missile boat so it's more distinct from the cynabal and could use lows to even fit full DPS and MOAR SPEED! That would probably make all the existing vaga pilots very sad if they can't use missiles though so that's not really an option.. Besides, I think with that slight powergrid boost it's actually in a pretty good place now since it can fit 425s or even 650 artys with ACR rigs.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Alsyth
#1745 - 2013-08-07 17:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Deimos too good. There was not a single cruiser with active armor bonus, and why? Because it is much too powerful.

You get same raw tank as an Astarte/EOS with a third of the signature, and close to twice the speed. And you have better capacitor...



And no, Vagabond is another story entirely.
-It has extremely low base buffer (a LSE Vaga has less EHP than a DC2 Deimos)
-very bad fitting which won't allow oversized tank (or else the fit is totally gimped)
-only 4 med slots which won't allow for more than 2-slot tank (+DC2 and 2 rigs) while Deimos has 4 slot tank (+DC2 and 2 rigs)
Sigras
Conglomo
#1746 - 2013-08-07 17:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
sten mattson wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(

Fly a navy omen if you want an omen hull that can deal with frigate crap.

I'd love to if i could get the old nomen damage back

Nano Zealots are actually one of the most effective anti-tackle ships I have every flown, reasonable tracking and immense projection means that most tackle doesn't get in close.

Its not a ship that can solo unfortunately.

I dont care much for nano zealots. I want to be able to fly solo in an armor , possibly active tanked zealot. And to do that i would need some way to dealt with frigs that is not lock them and pray to empress jamyl that they die before they reach you.

Zealot and eagle are also the *only* hacs that can be completely shut down by a single frig with a scram and a TD. And even then the eagld has a choice to forgo tank to put in more webs. The zealot has none of that.

A solo active armor tanked ship that has a way to deal with frigates? the deimos, brutix, astarte are >>>>> That way

A fleet ship with a brick tank and great damage projection? now youre talking zealot.

The key is choosing the right tool for the job forcing a screwdriver to hammer in a nail
W0lf Crendraven
TeamTama
#1747 - 2013-08-07 17:34:42 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
They could just make the vaga the missile boat so it's more distinct from the cynabal and could use lows to even fit full DPS and MOAR SPEED! That would probably make all the existing vaga pilots very sad if they can't use missiles though so that's not really an option.. Besides, I think with that slight powergrid boost it's actually in a pretty good place now since it can fit 425s or even 650 artys with ACR rigs.


That is whats called the scythe fleet issue, would mind the vaga becomming a missile kiter.


I made a simple eft graph to show you why the vaga is regarrded as a bad kiter.

Its vs a caracal moving away at some transversal.

The red line is the vaga, the green one a raildeimos, dark blue a zealot and light blue a rlml cerb.

The vagabond is dual te, dual gyro 220s, warriors and barrage.


http://i.imgur.com/5M0tYZL.png
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1748 - 2013-08-07 17:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Sigras wrote:
Thorvik wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)

If this does not shut the "Vaga is crap" circlejerk up, then nothing will.

Will be more comfy fitting 425's with T2 extenders, though I don't think it was needed. Going to be a very stronk kiter I'm sure.

The added PG is awesome. With the TE nerf, it's still not a good kiter. It would need a fall off bonus instead of the silly Shield booster ****

No, No, No

The fastest ship does not also get the most range. You're already at 3.3 + 32 with barrage which means 76.6% of your damage at 23.5 km or just farthest scram range. In fact, the fastest ship should have the shortest range forcing him to commit.

Compare that with a deimos . . . 22.1% slower, stuck with an armor tank and half the range . . .


And the Vaga has a smaller sig and better resists and doesn't need cap but still has the same reload time as AAR with ASB....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1749 - 2013-08-07 17:44:37 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
Deimos too good. There was not a single cruiser with active armor bonus, and why? Because it is much too powerful.

You get same raw tank as an Astarte/EOS with a third of the signature, and close to twice the speed. And you have better capacitor...



And no, Vagabond is another story entirely.
-It has extremely low base buffer (a LSE Vaga has less EHP than a DC2 Deimos)
-very bad fitting which won't allow oversized tank (or else the fit is totally gimped)
-only 4 med slots which won't allow for more than 2-slot tank (+DC2 and 2 rigs) while Deimos has 4 slot tank (+DC2 and 2 rigs)


you do know that resistance bonus is better as its affects local/RR/ehp right?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1750 - 2013-08-07 18:14:57 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, I'm still kind of out of it and I'll probably give another check-in here after the weekend, but here's where I stand for now: .....

Sacrilege: The Sacrilege was definitely one of the more difficult ones to pin down, but I think we're in a pretty good place. We looked at a few other options for ..... we improved it a lot as a brawler while preserving its character as a very high-utility HAC that can do a lot of different things.....

Keep looking is all I can say.

- What the hell does a "brawler" need a 40km SR weapon system range for, that is kiting distance. Might be a good idea for you to sit down and hash out the (role) definitions before committing to anything as the schizophrenic Sacrilege indicates that you are harbouring some confusion as to what a brawler is.
- How many ship through the history of Eve has had the moniker "high utility, lots of different things" and how much were they actually used .. It is all fine if they are on par when doing the things they can do but then you are in generalized territory (ie. no longer T2/HAC) as a T2 hull being able to do any one thing as well as a ship tilted towards a single mode would be OP as hell.
Result is a Swiss Army knife made of plastic; Great utility, can do loads of stuff. Just be prepared to go elsewhere when it fails the second time it is used for something other than as a letter opener.

It can still be saved however, will still be a plasticky utility knife but with a few titanium reinforced utilities:
Two options remain that will not break it, at least not more than the norm for rebalanced ships, take one or both as deemed necessary.

Sacrilege has anaemic dps comparatively, you are forced to carry ec300 (when are they getting the nerf bat by the way?) outside the blob so in reality you are only getting the equivalent of 2 light drones worth of damage from the drone bay changes which are the only real changes made to it with regards to brawling.
HAM's do not have stellar application without explosion velocity/radius bonuses and generally require target to be largely stationary and/or painted or have an unsupported buffer tank that can be whittled down .. all four mids are spoken for (prop/cap/web/point) so if it meets an active tanked ship it is likely to lose.

- It needs another low to be able to tank through enemy damage while its own whittles down the opponent. With more (reliable) staying power the ec300 can and will be swapped for damage. The added low enhances its ability to kite brawl (hahahaha) at disruptor range and opens up for more than viable shield fits.
- It doesn't need the missile range bonus, that goes double now that you included HML's in the primary bonus, what it needs is someway to either apply its damage or fuckup an enemies ability to tank.
Replace the velocity bonus with either explosion velocity or radius to allow for application -or- replace velocity bonus with a neut/nos amount bonus a la Pilgrim (it is Khanid after all) to allow for a tank off-switch.

Now if you are clever you'll see what I just proposed and the nervous laughter it will probably bring .. by adding both (high to low, neut bonus) you are forcing a dps decrease if neuting is wanted by pilot (same as Zealot). Bonused neuting pretty much ensures the use of medium combat drones however as the fight can theoretically be ended before backup arrives and it expands its repertoire to include going all neut support in the fleet theatre.

As it stands choosing any of the other HACs is a better option regardless of what one wants to do. Diemos (note the absence of the 't' Smile), Muninn and Ishtar will all be far superior brawlers and Eagle, Ishtar, Cerberus, Zealot will be superior kiters .. even when doing their "off" thing (ex. Diemos as kiter) the others will be better than the Sacrilege.

PS: If you didn't catch it, great Diemos change. Will be an absolute horror on the small scale .. the proverbial wet rolled up newspaper only moistened with concrete instead of water.

Edit: Just remembered .. there is another hope-of-salvation for the Sacrilege .. some years ago CCP mentioned adding a high-slot TP. That might do the trick if followed through.



*Clap Clap* There isn't much to add. You described the current issue very well, thank you.

Now my 2 Cents. I'm aware that the 4th Mid of the SAC has it's uses, just as all Midslots are usually a good addition to a ships overall capabilities. Now looking at the SAC what Role does it actually fill? Where does it truly shine in comparison to other HACs in a specific Role? As said before it's pretty much a Jack of all trades without specific strengths or weaknesses. While many seem to be ok with that i personally see this as being simply boring and uninspired.

This is what i propose.
High - 6 Slots
Mid - 3 Slots
Low - 6 Slots

Since the SAC has built in it's amazing Cap-reload capabilities, a 4th Mid commonly used for Cap Injectors (assuming the rest is used for MWD, WEB, SCRAM) would be pretty much useless. It would also create a certain Balance of clear defined Strengths(Tank+Attack) and Weaknesses (against the buffed Nosferatus and already awesome Neuts). With such a change there would be no denying that this is a Heavy Brawler. One Mid less would balance it out decently without creating an overpowered PWN-Machine.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1751 - 2013-08-07 18:17:41 UTC
Sacrilige should get an application bonus instead of the range bonus.

aHac's can **** off, they already have the zealot.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

W0lf Crendraven
TeamTama
#1752 - 2013-08-07 18:18:56 UTC
If you use dishonour drones with a sac you are beeing bad.
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1753 - 2013-08-07 18:39:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)


if thats your measuring stick i'm quite worried.
ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1754 - 2013-08-07 18:40:19 UTC


Upon a request,
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A Duplicate post was removed at user's request.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1755 - 2013-08-07 18:43:19 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Why not include an additional role bonus: 50% to Afterburner speed.

Give HACS much needed flexibility, and I like the bonus for MWD's, but wheres the active tanking love?


THIS
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1756 - 2013-08-07 18:56:50 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Cool, but what about deimos powergrid? I don't much like fitting electron blasters while everyone else has heavy pulses and 425s.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1757 - 2013-08-07 19:14:24 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Cool, but what about deimos powergrid? I don't much like fitting electron blasters while everyone else has heavy pulses and 425s.


To be fair, your not going to get 425s on an armor vaga, but you can get nutrons on a shield Deimos.
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#1758 - 2013-08-07 19:22:31 UTC
why not give t2 3 rig slots already? or at least reduce t3 to 1 slot
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1759 - 2013-08-07 19:35:27 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
I see no reason to ask for the muninn to be changed to missiles. It has its own role, and artillery is it. That said, it would benefit from a bit more power grid so you could fit 720mm IIs and a 1600mm plate without both rig slots using an ancillary current router. Otherwise, it will remain only a Black Legion toy, not having enough damage/tank to make even an anti-support fleet. If intended as small gang/solo play.... Well, the minmatar already have the vagabond, don't they?


Because there is no Minmatar missile hac and the Muninn as it stands probably won't get much use.
There's no Minmatar T1 attack or combat cruiser, either. Their "missile cruiser" is a disruption one. There's nothing that would lead someone to believe that Minmatar would get a missile HAC, either. I fully expect the Huginn to become the Minmatar T2 missile boat, as much as the Bellicose serves as its T1 option. Couldn't you see the Stabber and Rupture and expect that their HAC variants would more-or-less perform their roles?

I'm sure many of us thought HACs were going to be stronger dps (application, damage amount, optimal, falloff, etc.) versions of their ships (in much the way a Zealot is flat-out better than an Omen), but Rise is content to make them "resilient" boats, but now seeing the Command ship overhauls, I'm honestly not sure where these HACs stand.

Those new Command Ships have sensor strength on-par, dps on-par, much more tank (with more slots, more stats and the same resistances), and 2x utility high slots. So why, then, would I fly a HAC over a more survivable-and-equally-efficient-and-somewhat-better CS? Over a Navy BC? Do they have a unique bonus that allows them to fit an MJD? Is their damage-per-isk output *so* much higher than a CS? Sadly, no. The Vulture, for example, has the same dual optimal bonuses, same resist bonus but it has a 10%! bonus damage to turrets per level than an Eagle's 5%, making the Vulture as effective or better at range with 7.5 effective turrets over the Eagle's 6.25. So where is the compelling reason? Oh wait, they have an MWD bonus that works well if they decide to kite yet is totally worthless for brawling play styles....right.....compelling.

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1760 - 2013-08-07 19:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Maximus Andendare wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
I see no reason to ask for the muninn to be changed to missiles. It has its own role, and artillery is it. That said, it would benefit from a bit more power grid so you could fit 720mm IIs and a 1600mm plate without both rig slots using an ancillary current router. Otherwise, it will remain only a Black Legion toy, not having enough damage/tank to make even an anti-support fleet. If intended as small gang/solo play.... Well, the minmatar already have the vagabond, don't they?


Because there is no Minmatar missile hac and the Muninn as it stands probably won't get much use.
There's no Minmatar T1 attack or combat cruiser, either. Their "missile cruiser" is a disruption one. There's nothing that would lead someone to believe that Minmatar would get a missile HAC, either. I fully expect the Huginn to become the Minmatar T2 missile boat, as much as the Bellicose serves as its T1 option. Couldn't you see the Stabber and Rupture and expect that their HAC variants would more-or-less perform their roles?

I'm sure many of us thought HACs were going to be stronger dps (application, damage amount, optimal, falloff, etc.) versions of their ships (in much the way a Zealot is flat-out better than an Omen), but Rise is content to make them "resilient" boats, but now seeing the Command ship overhauls, I'm honestly not sure where these HACs stand.

Those new Command Ships have sensor strength on-par, dps on-par, much more tank (with more slots, more stats and the same resistances), and 2x utility high slots. So why, then, would I fly a HAC over a more survivable-and-equally-efficient-and-somewhat-better CS? Over a Navy BC? Do they have a unique bonus that allows them to fit an MJD? Is their damage-per-isk output *so* much higher than a CS? Sadly, no. The Vulture, for example, has the same dual optimal bonuses, same resist bonus but it has a 10%! bonus damage to turrets per level than an Eagle's 5%, making the Vulture as effective or better at range with 7.5 effective turrets over the Eagle's 6.25. So where is the compelling reason? Oh wait, they have an MWD bonus that works well if they decide to kite yet is totally worthless for brawling play styles....right.....compelling.


mm... the only way the mwd bonus is useful is if you're kiting at around 20km Vaga style with the transversal up ... there is no reason to fly the current eagle its speed and sig and dps is so poor you might aswell use a ferox or Vulture or railgun deimos or Naga or Talos.....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using