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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2521 - 2013-08-27 15:44:18 UTC
Oh I agree its a competent brawler, thats half the problem, all CCP have done is not in any way improve its kiting ability while simultaneously giving New Eden another easy counter to kiters.

Eve Online, The Brawl at 0 and Overload expansion pack.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2522 - 2013-08-27 16:11:11 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi.

Its still not a very good kiter.

It still needs a double falloff bonus.

Its pushing OP as an anti-nano brawler/heavy tackle with an XLASB now.

Good job CCP...


Try fitting it with 650mm howitzers and an HML. That gives you about 500dps within disruptor range and falloff to 50km.

The base navigation speed of this ship (with good navigation skills) is 368 m/s
With an MWD (which you can almost perma-run) it's 2369 with imperfect skills (you can get another 5% on top of that)
overheated I am doing 3369 m/s
Add some implants and skirmish links and it becomes... astonishing.

I am struggling to see how this is "not a very good kiter" since it can kite most frigates, all cruisers and everything else in the game.



Yes, now try fitting a tank and a prop mod.

Oh no wait you can't.

You also get way better performance out of a Rail Deimos (Which can fit full tank and 250 rails by the way) for a minimal loss in speed.

You pretty much proved my point.


I never post on here without actually testing on Sisi. I fitted a vaga with:
650mm artillery
1 x HML

10mn MWD (prop mod)
warp disruptor II
invulnerability field
medium ASB

DC II
gyro x 3
tracking enhancer x 1

2 shield resist rigs

5 hobgoblins

It quite happily kites pretty much anything for as long as you want while applying almost full damage.

It can dictate range and if the fight looks unwinnable, it can disengage and live to fight another day - burning to a safe distance while using the ASB to stay alive.

This ability to disengage at will is what makes the vagabond so special. It won't beat everything (any more) but there's no excuse for losing one unless you get out maneuvered.

I understand that many lowsec pirates will whine that there is now at last a counter for the vagabond, but that does not mean it's "unable to kite", it just means that it's no longer an auto-win in 1v1 pvp.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2523 - 2013-08-27 16:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Sergeant MacRobert
Scan Resolution on the new HACs does not look right to me.

Hull - - - New Scan Res

Ferox - - 195
Naga - - 220
Tornado - - 250

Eagle - - 252
Moa - - 260

Deimos - - 270
Thorax - - 280

These two HACSs above appear too low to me. Particularly the Scan Res on the Eagle (does not compare well to the 'Nado).

Comparison:

Rupture - - 290
Muninn - - 294

Stabber - - 320
Vaga - - 330

Omen - - 300
Zealot - - 306

Maller - - 280
Sacriledge - - 312

Vexor - - 280
Ishtar - - 294

Edit:

Caracal - - 270
Cerb - - 282

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2524 - 2013-08-27 16:24:28 UTC
Vaga speed advantage over other hacs is uncalled for with its new tankier outlook.

No problem with it being fastest HAc but 240 would seem more appropriate than the 30% faster than nearest rival it currently has.

Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2525 - 2013-08-27 16:26:14 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2526 - 2013-08-27 16:32:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
@ RISE

not that you have responded for many pages but hey...

CS have 3% to links as one of there CS skill bonus .. did you think perhaps you could do the same with HACS ..so a 4% resistance bonus .. i think this would certainly help reinforce the resilience identity of HAC's that you are aiming for.and just reduce the base T2 resists on all T2 hulls, yes they are specialist but it doesn't mean all T2 hulls should have high base resistance.
so for example

SACRILEGE

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
4% to all Armor Resistances

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M, 6L(+1); 1 turrets(-3), 4 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.8)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+17) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)


I don't understand your suggestion. Do you want CCP to nerf every t2 ship in the game to make HAC better? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Could you clarify? Also you have a 5% bonus to Heavy Assault. Heavy assault what?
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2527 - 2013-08-27 16:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).




Hmm funny you should mention that 1.7cap/s increase for the Vaga , 1.8cap/s for sac.

so that makes 6 effective bonuses for the Vaga if you want to include cap changes.


Personally not that interested in the cap changes.
More worried about the ship choice if I wan't to fly a kitey Hac,
Currently the choices are Vaga, Vaga , Vaga or Vaga.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2528 - 2013-08-27 16:44:26 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

The pure kiting Vagabond of old is dead. Long live the dagger-in-the-back Vagabond!

Could conceivably break even Deimos's, ....


Ye tried that one, but it feels a little like a dog hunting it's own tail. Vaga can't overwhelm even that one MAR on that Deimos (thanks to being in the own tracking-red-zone already), while the Deimos just can't track at all. So it's merely a stalemate, favoring whoever of them has the better drone skills <.<
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#2529 - 2013-08-27 16:59:32 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).



Since cap bonus was HAC wide the Sac really lost its cap bonus.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2530 - 2013-08-27 17:08:54 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).



Since cap bonus was HAC wide the Sac really lost its cap bonus.


It still has a very significant edge in cap/s compared to all other hacs (even the deimos at 6.2/s)

Claiming that it does not have a cap advantage is simply wrong.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2531 - 2013-08-27 17:21:15 UTC
Next Tuesday, the real HAC test begins. They haven't posted a new set of changes, so I'm guessing 1.1 will drop with changes as currently proposed.

That is, the eagle remains worthless in small gang applications, and the deimos remains amazing in said situations. The deimos has little advantage in a fleet with logi ships, the eagle, however... It's a good month for those who have all cruiser skills at V.

Did the zealot get the CPU buff mentioned earlier on the test server? It was never edited into the OP.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2532 - 2013-08-27 17:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
ArcticPrism wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
@ RISE

not that you have responded for many pages but hey...

CS have 3% to links as one of there CS skill bonus .. did you think perhaps you could do the same with HACS ..so a 4% resistance bonus .. i think this would certainly help reinforce the resilience identity of HAC's that you are aiming for.and just reduce the base T2 resists on all T2 hulls, yes they are specialist but it doesn't mean all T2 hulls should have high base resistance.
so for example

SACRILEGE

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
4% to all Armor Resistances

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M, 6L(+1); 1 turrets(-3), 4 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.8)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+17) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)


I don't understand your suggestion. Do you want CCP to nerf every t2 ship in the game to make HAC better? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Could you clarify? Also you have a 5% bonus to Heavy Assault. Heavy assault what?


LOL i must have cut the damage part off .. do'h ... well the point being is that T2 shouldn't have high resists as a basic default ... for instance should a Pilgrim have the same resists as a Zealot??? .. no because its an e-war ship not a combat ship designed for resilience ... so yes reduce the resists of all T2 hulls to a lower T2 resist default.
Then add the resist to HAC skill so they will have more noticeable resilience.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2533 - 2013-08-27 17:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ArcticPrism
Wouldn't just increasing the base HP of HACS be a better solution? Something more than +100 shield or armor here and there. I don't think nerfing every t2 ship class in the game is a good idea. That would take a lot of time to do and then there would be testing to see the performance of said ships afterwards.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2534 - 2013-08-27 18:25:05 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.


So do the deimos and sac (they had cap bonuses rolled into the hull).




Hmm funny you should mention that 1.7cap/s increase for the Vaga , 1.8cap/s for sac.

so that makes 6 effective bonuses for the Vaga if you want to include cap changes.


Personally not that interested in the cap changes.
More worried about the ship choice if I wan't to fly a kitey Hac,
Currently the choices are Vaga, Vaga , Vaga or Vaga.

But let's take a step back and consider what ccp are trying to achieve here. The aim of the game is not to give an equal number of buffs to each hull. It's not even to make each one equally desirable in any given scenario.
The purpose is to ensure that each one has some kind of role that will make it attractive to a pilot or FC.
To judge whether the changes are a success, we need only answer that question.

I think on the whole, they are a success. They fill some gaps that other ships can't and none of them are useless. That's enough right?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
mrs Dibbler
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2535 - 2013-08-27 20:15:18 UTC
Vagabond is a total disaster.
An mwd flying gunboat with shield boost and only FOUR midslots, only one missile launcher, only 25 m3 dronebay, a low slot AND a rig less than the fleet stabber, for me this ship alone represents a complete degradation of the entire concept of a HAC.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2536 - 2013-08-27 20:47:36 UTC
mrs Dibbler wrote:
Vagabond is a total disaster.
An mwd flying gunboat with shield boost and only FOUR midslots, only one missile launcher, only 25 m3 dronebay, a low slot AND a rig less than the fleet stabber, for me this ship alone represents a complete degradation of the entire concept of a HAC.


Well done missing the t2 shield resistances on the vaga....

Bias analysis is best analysis...Roll
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2537 - 2013-08-27 22:51:27 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.


You most certainly can, and it's being done every morning on the test server. Go try it.


Killing a Deimos with an Ardestia (sp) or Vindicator is not my idea of balance.

You won't kill it with a single ship CS down without massive Neuting.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2538 - 2013-08-27 22:53:26 UTC
Phaade wrote:


Killing a Deimos with an Ardestia (sp) or Vindicator is not my idea of balance.

You won't kill it with a single ship CS down without massive Neuting.


And to be fair, a vindi can't even really break it's tank anyway
Sira Fiinikkusu
THE AESIR.
#2539 - 2013-08-27 23:39:34 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Phaade wrote:


Killing a Deimos with an Ardestia (sp) or Vindicator is not my idea of balance.

You won't kill it with a single ship CS down without massive Neuting.


And to be fair, a vindi can't even really break it's tank anyway

yes because lets ignore the T2 resists that deimos gets Roll
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2540 - 2013-08-28 00:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Sira Fiinikkusu wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Phaade wrote:


Killing a Deimos with an Ardestia (sp) or Vindicator is not my idea of balance.

You won't kill it with a single ship CS down without massive Neuting.


And to be fair, a vindi can't even really break it's tank anyway

yes because lets ignore the T2 resists that deimos gets Roll


Pretty sure that's exactly what I was not ignoring.... Roll