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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#2501 - 2013-08-27 04:37:37 UTC
Battlingbean wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:




If I had 1 million ISK for every time someone on these forums declared something horribly OP (or agreed with someone's declaration of horrible OP-ness) and then this turned out to be so much space-dust when the changes hit TQ I think I would be able to buy enough Titans to spell out "I Told You So!" in space.


Like when you said the Eagle would be OP with a 10% damage bonus?


I'm talking about stuff that actually has a chance of making in game. If Rise puts a 10% damage bonus on the Eagle and it goes live to TQ AND isn't OP, then I'll eat crow.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2502 - 2013-08-27 06:07:52 UTC
Sac would be 10x better if Rise would remove utility high and add one more low slot imo...
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
#2503 - 2013-08-27 07:21:01 UTC
raawe wrote:
Sac would be 10x better if Rise would remove utility high and add one more low slot imo...


yea maybe for PVE but that utility high is a god-send in pvp, with the new changes you can ab fit and perma run the medium neut, cant get much better than that
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2504 - 2013-08-27 08:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?
Awesome sig, awesome cap (not hinted by MWD)....


... and 100mn rapid light cerbs going 2.7km/s before links with a 120m sig radius...


To ask the rest of the audience: Can anyone of you imagine some sort of neuting bonus (or bonus to neut behavior) that wouldn't potentially push the sacriledge way over the cliff into OP-land? Only something similiar to the geddon comes to mind (increasing the med neut coverage from 12 to 18km, or beyond regular heavy tackle range to max navy HAM range, still far less than a curse)
Cade Windstalker
#2505 - 2013-08-27 10:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?
Awesome sig, awesome cap (not hinted by MWD)....


... and 100mn rapid light cerbs going 2.7km/s before links with a 120m sig radius...


To ask the rest of the audience: Can anyone of you imagine some sort of neuting bonus (or bonus to neut behavior) that wouldn't potentially push the sacriledge way over the cliff into OP-land? Only something similiar to the geddon comes to mind (increasing the med neut coverage from 12 to 18km, or beyond regular heavy tackle range to max navy HAM range, still far less than a curse)


Honestly my biggest issue with such a bonus would be that it would be OP in solo PvP and half-useless almost everywhere else. You're literally bonusing a single extra slot on most fits or pushing the ship to ignore its weapon bonuses so it can... neut out frigates better? >.>

Never mind that this is Curse/Pilgrim territory and no other HAC gets an 'EWar' bonus.

For all those who (somehow) can't find a use for that slot in fleets you're getting a tank, range, and double damage bonused missile ship that can rotate damage types freely and fits a full flight of medium drones along with 4 utility mids making this a *very* solid Heavy-Tackle/Brawler even with the low ... um low count Straight
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2506 - 2013-08-27 11:26:52 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?

Because it worked so well when it was tested with the AFs back in the day Big smile
Lloyd Roses wrote:
To ask the rest of the audience: Can anyone of you imagine some sort of neuting bonus (or bonus to neut behavior) that wouldn't potentially push the sacriledge way over the cliff into OP-land?..

Half to Full Pilgrim bonus, that is 10-20%/level. DPS (both paper and applied) is still below par and the only way to increase it is to take large chunks out of the tank.
Not sure how it could ever be OP, even with the full Pilgrim bonus .. limited range and majority of ships using injectors with rest being faster and/or longer ranged .. current Pilgrim fields more neuts, bonused TD's and practically tie with the Sacrilege in damage (applied) and tank, that is with Recons not having had their enema yet.

Would it be annoying/difficult to fight with generic fits? Hell yes. Would it be unbeatable? Doubtful.

It is slower than most of the other HACs and they are all able to function even when hit with twin medium neuts (ie. result of full Pilgrim bonus) and even heavy neuts when injected. The ships that will suffer the most are frigates but then they are taking minuscule damage from HAMs so it even out ..
Gives it a trump card in solo/small-gang that is not automatically applied but for which it must be in position to play and offers up a new neuting option for fleets where highly mobile neuts with above average (MWD sig actually helps in blobs) survivability is needed.

Last but not least, it would be an Amarr bonus instead of the off-center loaner from Caldari.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2507 - 2013-08-27 12:23:27 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Not sure how it could ever be OP, even with the full Pilgrim bonus .. limited range and majority of ships using injectors with rest being faster and/or longer ranged .. current Pilgrim fields more neuts, bonused TD's and practically tie with the Sacrilege in damage (applied) and tank, that is with Recons not having had their enema yet.


I'd say pilgrim is more around 50% of the deeps, and around 50% of the tank, though its' neuts are superior, TD is avaiable and a covops cloak.

I atleast wouldn't mind both the pilgrim and the sacriledge to twist around the same branch, just translating differently to the task, with even the legion (neut-sub + missilesub OR cloakysub) adding another flavor to it. Believe they would differ greatly in playstyle, even though using near identical tools. The current Sacriledge (SiSione) is quite nice, but as the Deimos got a spotlight using the (racial) armorbonus, the vaga got a possibly non-impacting active tank bonus, and flavor in the style of enhanced neuts beyond the existing armorresist-bonus might just pidgeonhole it down to a single neut -always- being in your option high (though a very useful one) BUT could even enable a HAC performing outside of it's obvious role as sort of a weak, but resilent, highresist neuter next to pals like the ashimmu.

As my webs and Scrams generally only reach some 12k cool max, I just feel about that rangebonus as something even more optional compared to even the vagabonds shieldboost. And HAMs+Hammerheads aren't gonna work well with just a long point.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2508 - 2013-08-27 13:05:55 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
raawe wrote:
Sac would be 10x better if Rise would remove utility high and add one more low slot imo...


yea maybe for PVE but that utility high is a god-send in pvp, with the new changes you can ab fit and perma run the medium neut, cant get much better than that

The Sac: Its good because you can perma run the medium neut wiht an ab.


Not because it does good damage, is fast, or tanks well, but because it can perma run a single neut.


Eve Online 2013.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2509 - 2013-08-27 13:12:13 UTC
surely the sac would benefit from having that 6th low slot so why not remove a mid for it instead of the utility high?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2510 - 2013-08-27 13:52:09 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
surely the sac would benefit from having that 6th low slot so why not remove a mid for it instead of the utility high?


Because it needs all 4 mids for any possible useful fitting configuration, thats the thing, theres zero creativity allowed for in fitting the Sac, its shoehorned into sub optimal craptastic fits and nothing about this patch makes it anymore desirable than it was before.

Overall Damage Output: Weak
Overall Damage Application: Weak
Speed: Slow
Tank: Laughable
Options When Fitting: Next to None.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
#2511 - 2013-08-27 14:04:34 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


Because it needs all 4 mids for any possible useful fitting configuration, thats the thing, theres zero creativity allowed for in fitting the Sac, its shoehorned into sub optimal craptastic fits and nothing about this patch makes it anymore desirable than it was before.

Overall Damage Output: Weak
Overall Damage Application: Weak
Speed: Slow
Tank: Laughable
Options When Fitting: Next to None.


You have no idea how good the sac is and how many varients your going to see soon.

Overall Dmg Output:: Weak - try 700-750 dps when implanted
Overall Dmg Aplication: Weak - yep your right here but it is effective vs big targets
Speed: slow - so F***ing what its a brawler
Tank: Laughable - there is nearly no difference between this and a zealot ahac
Qptions When fitting: Next to None - i can make 3 fits for this ship that are all different, but yes ship is designed for 5 hams 1 neut some ewar mids and your standard buffer tank.


Fair play it might be the wrong choice for the 100+ fleets of 0.0 but its a great small-mid gang ship and scales well up to about the 40 man mark
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2512 - 2013-08-27 14:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Vulfen wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


Because it needs all 4 mids for any possible useful fitting configuration, thats the thing, theres zero creativity allowed for in fitting the Sac, its shoehorned into sub optimal craptastic fits and nothing about this patch makes it anymore desirable than it was before.

Overall Damage Output: Weak
Overall Damage Application: Weak
Speed: Slow
Tank: Laughable
Options When Fitting: Next to None.


You have no idea how good the sac is and how many varients your going to see soon.

Overall Dmg Output:: Weak - try 700-750 dps when implanted
Overall Dmg Aplication: Weak - yep your right here but it is effective vs big targets
Speed: slow - so F***ing what its a brawler
Tank: Laughable - there is nearly no difference between this and a zealot ahac
Qptions When fitting: Next to None - i can make 3 fits for this ship that are all different, but yes ship is designed for 5 hams 1 neut some ewar mids and your standard buffer tank.


Fair play it might be the wrong choice for the 100+ fleets of 0.0 but its a great small-mid gang ship and scales well up to about the 40 man mark


IF you have 700 DPS, then your statement about its tank isn't possible, you can't have both, or even anything close to both like you can on a Zealot.(this is also paper DPS, not actual in game DPS which is always significantly different than what you actually get - see Damage Application)

You will have 3 fitting variations, and in those fitting variations there is 1 viable high slot configuration, and 2 viable mid slot configuartions (dual prop web scram or single prop injector web scram) and THATS IT..

The Deimos changes and Ishtar changes are pretty amazing/borderline broken, then to see things like the zealot not changing at all (even though you see more Oracle fleets than you do Zealot fleets) and the Sac getting pretty much NO love in any way shape or form while the Cerb becomes some missile spewing monster is fairly disgusting. They break 3 hacs, and basically ignore the rest saying "looks clear!"

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2513 - 2013-08-27 14:58:10 UTC
I think the problem with HAC balancing is that the difference between crap, good and OP is very small.

In addition, each ship lends itself to a different doctrine and environment so side by side comparisons are probably not useful.

It's always nice to think that "my" ship of choice can beat all others in a 1v1 but the truth is that almost no fights that actually matter in Eve are 1v1 - and if you're going to go exclusively looking for 1v1 I imagine you'll play station games, have a look at what the other guy brought and then bring a ship that counters it.

The presence of this style of play should not influence the unique and diverse nature of the HAC bonus distribution.

"What will I use my 1 HAC for?" is the wrong question. The correct question is, "how will these HACs perform in groups of 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 100?"

The "best" HAC choice will change throughout this range.

If it's 1v1 and you're at point blank range then obviously you'd want a deimos. If it's 1v1 and you're not at point blank you'd probably want a vagabond (nothing changes there).

As the numbers start to grow, the deimos' bonus looks less useful since the local tank becomes irrelevant and the likes of sacrilege, zealot, munnin, eagle, cerberus (especially) and ishtar start to look more attractive on grounds of versatility, damage projection, damage types and so on.

Interestingly, I don't see the vagabond getting less useful as the numbers grow, simply because it's a supremely fast and hard hitting versatile little ship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#2514 - 2013-08-27 15:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi.

Its still not a very good kiter.

It still needs a double falloff bonus.

Its pushing OP as an anti-nano brawler/heavy tackle with an XLASB now.

Good job CCP...
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
#2515 - 2013-08-27 15:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulfen
Grath Telkin wrote:

IF you have 700 DPS, then your statement about its tank isn't possible, you can't have both, or even anything close to both like you can on a Zealot.(this is also paper DPS, not actual in game DPS which is always significantly different than what you actually get - see Damage Application)

You will have 3 fitting variations, and in those fitting variations there is 1 viable high slot configuration, and 2 viable mid slot configuartions (dual prop web scram or single prop injector web scram) and THATS IT..

The Deimos changes and Ishtar changes are pretty amazing/borderline broken, then to see things like the zealot not changing at all (even though you see more Oracle fleets than you do Zealot fleets) and the Sac getting pretty much NO love in any way shape or form while the Cerb becomes some missile spewing monster is fairly disgusting. They break 3 hacs, and basically ignore the rest saying "looks clear!"


Wrong with my fits. You can use offensive ewar in a small gang to gain an advantage

try 5HAMS 1 Medium Neut
1 AB
1 Piont
2 Offesive ewar mods (in a fleet we would mix in to these webs TPs Damps and even Jams)
1 Adaptive plating
1 1600mm t2 plate
2 bcu
1 Damage control unit
Rigs 1 Thermic Rig (T1) 1 Bay loading accelerator (T2)

5 Hamerhead II

That gives you a **** ton of DPS or if you want to just match it vs a zealot, then drop the BLAII and slap on a trimark, then the only differences is the Zealot is 50m/s faster and has 9 less sig radius and you still keep the 700dps when implanted.


Im aware that the DPS is paper, however by combining the ewar mods within this fleet your damage will be more real
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2516 - 2013-08-27 15:27:35 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi.

Its still not a very good kiter.

It still needs a double falloff bonus.

Its pushing OP as an anti-nano brawler/heavy tackle with an XLASB now.

Good job CCP...


Well, that's what Rise wanted it to do and he seems set in his ways on keeping it as a brawler.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2517 - 2013-08-27 15:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
@ RISE

not that you have responded for many pages but hey...

CS have 3% to links as one of there CS skill bonus .. did you think perhaps you could do the same with HACS ..so a 4% resistance bonus .. i think this would certainly help reinforce the resilience identity of HAC's that you are aiming for.and just reduce the base T2 resists on all T2 hulls, yes they are specialist but it doesn't mean all T2 hulls should have high base resistance.
so for example

SACRILEGE

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault Damage
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
4% to all Armor Resistances

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M, 6L(+1); 1 turrets(-3), 4 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.8)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+17) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2518 - 2013-08-27 15:32:20 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi.

Its still not a very good kiter.

It still needs a double falloff bonus.

Its pushing OP as an anti-nano brawler/heavy tackle with an XLASB now.

Good job CCP...


Try fitting it with 650mm howitzers and an HML. That gives you about 500dps within disruptor range and falloff to 50km.

The base navigation speed of this ship (with good navigation skills) is 368 m/s
With an MWD (which you can almost perma-run) it's 2369 with imperfect skills (you can get another 5% on top of that)
overheated I am doing 3369 m/s
Add some implants and skirmish links and it becomes... astonishing.

I am struggling to see how this is "not a very good kiter" since it can kite most frigates, all cruisers and everything else in the game.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#2519 - 2013-08-27 15:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi.

Its still not a very good kiter.

It still needs a double falloff bonus.

Its pushing OP as an anti-nano brawler/heavy tackle with an XLASB now.

Good job CCP...


Try fitting it with 650mm howitzers and an HML. That gives you about 500dps within disruptor range and falloff to 50km.

The base navigation speed of this ship (with good navigation skills) is 368 m/s
With an MWD (which you can almost perma-run) it's 2369 with imperfect skills (you can get another 5% on top of that)
overheated I am doing 3369 m/s
Add some implants and skirmish links and it becomes... astonishing.

I am struggling to see how this is "not a very good kiter" since it can kite most frigates, all cruisers and everything else in the game.



Yes, now try fitting a tank and a prop mod.

Oh no wait you can't.

You also get way better performance out of a Rail Deimos (Which can fit full tank and 250 rails by the way) for a minimal loss in speed.

You pretty much proved my point.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2520 - 2013-08-27 15:38:44 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So I tried the Vaga out on Sisi....

The way I'd fly it is to do the falloff dance forcing the enemy to burn charges (injector/AAR/ASB), as enemy nears end of charge capacity switch to EMP/PP and dive in (commence dive 6-7s into own reload cycle) live on your almost pristine tank and performing a time honored coup de grace.

The pure kiting Vagabond of old is dead. Long live the dagger-in-the-back Vagabond!

Could conceivably break even Deimos's, presuming the enemy does the human thing and panics (flight response) as you make the dive just as he is at his weakest.