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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1721 - 2013-08-07 13:00:45 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Very nice, now just another faloff bonus on the vaga and you have a good brawler and a very viable kiter.

There is simply no pleasing you, is there?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1722 - 2013-08-07 13:05:01 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Very nice, now just another faloff bonus on the vaga and you have a good brawler and a very viable kiter.

There is simply no pleasing you, is there?


I don't think he will be happy until the vaga has 12 effective turrets, 150k ehp, and moves as fast as a dram.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#1723 - 2013-08-07 13:26:09 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Very nice, now just another faloff bonus on the vaga and you have a good brawler and a very viable kiter.

There is simply no pleasing you, is there?


Well I think judging by the fact he said "now add another falloff bonus" its pretty obvious there is pleasing him.

This grid change means it can now comfortably fit 220s, still can't fit 425s, a falloff bonus would bring it up to scratch perfectly.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1724 - 2013-08-07 13:31:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

SACRILEGE
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)

ZEALOT
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)

CERBERUS
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2000(-4) / 1200(+4) / 1400(-6)

EAGLE
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)

DEIMOS
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+40) / 2100(+60) / 2550(+19)

ISHTAR
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)

VAGABOND
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750(+97) / 1400(+63) / 980(-4)

MUNINN
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1580(-2) / 2000(-4) / 1400(-6)

CCP Rise, what is up these HP values? They are all over the place.

SACRILEGE
Raw HP 5040

ZEALOT
Raw HP 4900

CERBERUS
Raw HP 4600

EAGLE
Raw HP 5300

DEIMOS
Raw HP 5850

ISHTAR
Raw HP 5300

VAGABOND
Raw HP 4130

MUNINN
Raw HP 4980

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1725 - 2013-08-07 13:31:29 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


Very nice, now just another faloff bonus on the vaga and you have a good brawler and a very viable kiter.

There is simply no pleasing you, is there?


Well I think judging by the fact he said "now add another falloff bonus" its pretty obvious there is pleasing him.

This grid change means it can now comfortably fit 220s, still can't fit 425s, a falloff bonus would bring it up to scratch perfectly.


bought too many vagas and you cant sell them or what?
btw it seems the vaga can fit 425mm + mwd + shield tank pretty well , so where is the problem?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1726 - 2013-08-07 13:38:07 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

bought too many vagas and you cant sell them or what?
btw it seems the vaga can fit 425mm + mwd + shield tank pretty well , so where is the problem?


The problem is that people won't be happy until the ship can out brawl, out tank, and out kite all of it's competition.
Grarr Dexx
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#1727 - 2013-08-07 13:39:19 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(


Fly a navy omen if you want an omen hull that can deal with frigate crap.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1728 - 2013-08-07 13:43:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)

Oh crap, the meaning of this just sunk in .. Dev in charge thinks it is good that the Sacrilege is bad .. it can work of course but even the word niche will be an exaggeration Cry

Poor Sac.

Off topic: What do you have CCP Ytterbium doing, he get some stress related symptoms and opted for the non-confrontational skill reshuffle thingy to save what was left of his sanity? Big smile
Hayman Wakefield
Trans-Stellar Salvage Shipping and Securities
#1729 - 2013-08-07 13:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Hayman Wakefield
Other than speed, sig and lock speed the Vulture just seems to be a far better bet for the T2 rail sniper crown, I love the vulture hull so not that down hearted about it getting some winsauce added but sad for my crazy chicken still being out classed so quickly.

Would love to have seen the Eagles speed upped a little, tad more PG for the 250s then change the dual range bonuses to a single 15% per level and add in a mild 5% tracking bonus to turn it in to a high mobility sniper platform against light support ships.

Hey ho its got lots of surfaces to gather hanger dust on, that'll keep the exotic dancers busy
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
Local Is Primary
#1730 - 2013-08-07 13:52:45 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(

why?

maybe ask your mates to get rid of the enemy tackle frigs

zealot doesnt have to be solo ship


The zealot doesnt have to be only a"fleet ship" either. Considering every other hac bar the eagle have at least a flight of light drones (the cerb has only 3 but who needs them when your main weapon always hits and you can hit to 200k and cant be TDd).

Also considering the zealot has the worst tracking guns in the game....

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#1731 - 2013-08-07 14:02:29 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

bought too many vagas and you cant sell them or what?
btw it seems the vaga can fit 425mm + mwd + shield tank pretty well , so where is the problem?


The problem is that people won't be happy until the ship can kite in a somewhat useful manner.


Fixed that for you.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
Local Is Primary
#1732 - 2013-08-07 14:12:40 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(


Fly a navy omen if you want an omen hull that can deal with frigate crap.


I'd love to if i could get the old nomen damage back

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1733 - 2013-08-07 14:20:10 UTC
Ok, lets look at what we have got so far

Sac: got better projection, fitting, use of heavy missles, and a nice drone bay.

Zeal: got some cpu, and benifits from coming beam changes, and was rather good to start.

Cerb: got damage, speed, fitting, now a great skirmisher.

Eagle: got fitting, benifits from rail changes, and a new mid for more tank.

Deimos: rep boost, rail changes, speed, extra mid, and extra cap.

Ish: more grid, and way more useful drone bonuses

Vaga: more grid, shield rep bonus

Muni: new low and maybe some grid.

All of that on top of capacitor, lock range, sensor, and sig buffs, and a mwd roll bonus. So over all allot of nice changes, im finaly happy with the vaga and deimos, tho the muni amd eagle feel like they both have the same problem of being pushed alittle to much tward sniping compaired to the rest.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#1734 - 2013-08-07 15:17:04 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
Added cpu to the zealot is nice but it still has no way to deal with frigs except to kill them before they get a tackle.

Please give the zalot a flight of drones or a utility high or a fourth mid :(


Fly a navy omen if you want an omen hull that can deal with frigate crap.


I'd love to if i could get the old nomen damage back


Nano Zealots are actually one of the most effective anti-tackle ships I have every flown, reasonable tracking and immense projection means that most tackle doesn't get in close.

Its not a ship that can solo unfortunately.
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1735 - 2013-08-07 15:19:04 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)

If this does not shut the "Vaga is crap" circlejerk up, then nothing will.

Will be more comfy fitting 425's with T2 extenders, though I don't think it was needed. Going to be a very stronk kiter I'm sure.


The added PG is awesome. With the TE nerf, it's still not a good kiter. It would need a fall off bonus instead of the silly Shield booster ****
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1736 - 2013-08-07 15:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
RISE

its a bit odd that the muninn is the only one with a tracking bonus.. is arties that bad?

perhaps free up some bonuses for a more split bonus ship think armour T2 scythe with better projection.

This way the muninn will get more use out of it and its very minmatar to do split bonuses anyway .. just look at the recons and fleet.

MUNINN

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Medium Projectile rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H(-1), 3M, 6L(+1); 6 turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 1160 PWG, 355 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1580(-2) / 2000(-4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1300(+50) / 255s (-80s) / 5.1/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+14) / .571 / 11750000 / 9.3s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+25km) / 294 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar(+8)
Signature radius: 125(-5)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Blastil
Aideron Robotics
#1737 - 2013-08-07 16:03:43 UTC
I am now satisfied. I rest my case.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1738 - 2013-08-07 16:28:29 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

its a bit odd that the muninn is the only one with a tracking bonus.. is arties that bad?

perhaps free up some bonuses for a more split bonus ship think armour T2 scythe with better projection.

This way the muninn will get more use out of it and its very minmatar to do split bonuses anyway .. just look at the recons and fleet.

MUNINN

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Medium Projectile rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire


I've been clamoring for the Muninn to be a missile boat for awhile, but I don't think the split weapons bonus is the way to go. HACs should be specialized, not generalists. I'd rather see something like this.

Muninn

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to explosive Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

I'd otherwise leave the ship as they've planned to make it. What you'd wind up with is a Minmatar missile boat that armor tanks well enough for AHAC gangs, and is great for roasting support ships (compared to the cerb, which is more of a long range sniper). THAT is a ship people would fly.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Sigras
Conglomo
#1739 - 2013-08-07 16:30:47 UTC
Thorvik wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)

If this does not shut the "Vaga is crap" circlejerk up, then nothing will.

Will be more comfy fitting 425's with T2 extenders, though I don't think it was needed. Going to be a very stronk kiter I'm sure.

The added PG is awesome. With the TE nerf, it's still not a good kiter. It would need a fall off bonus instead of the silly Shield booster ****

No, No, No

The fastest ship does not also get the most range. You're already at 3.3 + 32 with barrage which means 76.6% of your damage at 23.5 km or just farthest scram range. In fact, the fastest ship should have the shortest range forcing him to commit.

Compare that with a deimos . . . 22.1% slower, stuck with an armor tank and half the range . . .
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1740 - 2013-08-07 16:40:04 UTC
The eagle remains noncompetitive at its intended task. Please reduce base signature radius to 125m, increase base speed to 200m/s. I understand that it does have a range advantage over the zealot, but that is all it has. It will never be an actual doctrine option with its current signature to speed ratio due to the dominance of attack battlecruisers, which have a damage and range advantage. Please bear in mind that due to the detrimental effects of shield extenders and rigs, the eagle will never actually be 125m signature as the zealot. I think the eagle will still lose out in equal optimals against zealot with 125m sig and 200m/s, but that's what the double optimal bonus is for. Please tune the eagle a bit more into its fleet role, and we will actually see medium rail doctrines in the near future.

I like the new vaga PG. With current proposed fitting changes, it can fit one LSE, one large ASB, and a full rack of 425s with two projectile rigs and a PDS. It's extremely tight, though, as not a lot of people have projectile rigging 5. You can swap the PDS for an RCU, but I like that the PDS increases its engagement time and EHP a bit.

I see no reason to ask for the muninn to be changed to missiles. It has its own role, and artillery is it. That said, it would benefit from a bit more power grid so you could fit 720mm IIs and a 1600mm plate without both rig slots using an ancillary current router. Otherwise, it will remain only a Black Legion toy, not having enough damage/tank to make even an anti-support fleet. If intended as small gang/solo play.... Well, the minmatar already have the vagabond, don't they?