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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#281 - 2011-11-08 22:26:55 UTC
The problem with the blaster boats even after these changes to the hybrid weapons, is going to be the ability to control engagement range. I'm not a fan of making the Gallente ships themselves the fastest in EvE, but without some way of influencing the combat range at which fights occur, the same basic problem will exist.

I do like the idea of decreasing the time to lock blaster boats to give them some time to get in range.

But, what about showing some love to the Gallente EWAR and give the blaster boats a bonus to sensor dampener effectiveness? This module is custom designed for blaster boat philosophy, make your opponent come closer Big smile Or, unable to lock you unless you are in your preferred range.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2011-11-08 22:47:59 UTC
Wow, I really thought that was all we were getting it's definitely an improvement.

Blasters
I think Null is quite good ammo and boosting range may be a step to far however removing the tracking penalty would make it more useful, if you are using it you are normally kiting or being kited and the last thing you need is to be struggling for range and tracking at the same time.

Rails
With the ammo changes have you thought of keeping the ammo capacity, this would double the number of shots and may help rails pull ahead DPS wise over the course of an engagement. Currently I believe the larger rails can only fire 40 shots before reloading.

The optimal penalty for Javelin is very harsh perhaps 60% rather than 75% would be more useful and yet still keep the range lower than faction.

Drones
Even with all the upgrades I still feel that I need to make full use of my drone bandwidth for combat drones in order to stay competitive it gives me some DPS projection and an alternate damage type. I have seen requests before for an additional 25m3 drone bay to allow utility drones, if I can field a web drone or some ECM drones then maybe I can mitigate for a slower speed.

Also please introduce smaller web drones and look at the stacking, this should not be as overpowered as giving Gallente immense speed boosts as drones can be countered by blowing them up.

Drone Upgrades
The new T2 upgrades use a lot of CPU can increasing the CPU on the Gallente drone boats be considered.

While we are asking for things: -

Please look at the Proteus Prop Subs.

Possibly the Localised injectors could be considered balanced but the Grav Capacitor could do with a speed boost, make it faster than the localised injectors as it gets no cap bonus to running microwarpdrives .

Also the Wake Limiter could do with being changed to 15% per level.
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2011-11-08 22:49:31 UTC
mkint wrote:
Magosian wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
i really hope the ship buffs are mind-blowing, because as is, rails and blasters are still useless on the current ships.


I feel the same way. Sad Although I would much rather the weapon system be the primary focus of the changes. Moderate increases to Gallente speed/agility doesn't actually change a Minmatar-kiting scenario, nor does it do anything about the more substantial speed penalties incurred by buffing an armor tank.

What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?


I love this suggestion. It can be easily implemented: Some Gal. Ships, namely the Hyperion and the Britux, have a 7.5% bonus to self-rep. The 7.5% bonus to self repair could also (or instead) add to the armor bonus of regenerative membranes. That way first membrane you equip gives you massive (16+37.5) 53.5 % boost to hp. As you add more plates the stacking penalties make them less effective, preventing you from making a completely insane tank. So in practice we would see a gal. ship with three of these, a DCU, a couple energized adaptives and a damage mod, achieving same EHP as it would with plates. Gallente will be able to have a lot of armor and EHP without loosing ttheir mobility.
It can also be used to make other Gal. ships more capable.

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#284 - 2011-11-08 22:52:38 UTC
Magosian wrote:


I disagree. Autos and pulses will still have dominant range, and there is nothing hybrids have to compete with this. Loading null just means you're going to be doing 20% damage (if you're lucky) opposed to the 0% of anti/void. Hybrid users still need faster ships, range increases to base hybrid turret stats, or dramatic increases to range of t2 ammo. These changes are a good sign but they are NOT the problem-solvers.

Maybe it's different in the frig world, but this is definitely the case in the cruiser/BC/BS world.


Of course they do, but that has nothing to do with this change. Auto's don't have to change ammo types at all for their range, that doesn't make them better than pulse though, they are just different.

The point is, the change makes the hybrid ammo easier to use. With the previous setup, it was unreasonable to change range/ammo in the middle of the fight, so you ended up just carrying one type of ammo and burning to the ship so you were in range of said target, and waiting until then to start doing DPS.

In my experience this often led to targets being dead before I got a shot off in a Brutix.

With the new change, it is more reasonable for ships to carry multiple ammo types, similar to energy turrets, and be doing less dps further out, while they close into the target to switch to antimatter/close range ammo.

This is exactly what most energy turret ships do and it makes one of the variables of hybrid turret ammo (range) something we can work with/around.

Loading null and doing 20% damage while you close, is still better than loading antimatter and doing 0% damage while you close.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#285 - 2011-11-08 22:56:26 UTC
Why are you re-adding the nerf to Hail's falloff? I don't understand! Hail is SO BAD right now, it's practically useless; without having equivalent range to short range ammo, in line with Conflagration and Void (which actually has a better optimal), it doesn't make sense to me from a design perspective.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#286 - 2011-11-08 23:04:11 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.
Please be careful with sweeping changes to all blasters. The small blasters are quite fine - the frigate-sized blaster (and rail) setups are already very competitive if not "the best" (Taranis, Daredevil).


Two ships does not make a whole line fine.
Im tired of people saying that small hybrids are fine.

Its true they aren't as borked as there larger counter parts.

But the tristan is a real pita to use against a rifter, and the catalyst is just terrible.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2011-11-08 23:21:17 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.


Tallest,

Thanks for working on this issue and responding. Well, I guess this is better than nothing, but probably short of something sufficient to overcome all the problems everyone knows about. I guess I was hoping for a bolder change. No further adjustments planned to the hulls of Gallente ships then? Do you feel this "fixes" the hybrid problem and will be the final changes for the Winter expansion? I would really enjoy hearing your thoughts on what your vision is with these changes.
mkint
#288 - 2011-11-08 23:22:23 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
mkint wrote:
Magosian wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
i really hope the ship buffs are mind-blowing, because as is, rails and blasters are still useless on the current ships.


I feel the same way. Sad Although I would much rather the weapon system be the primary focus of the changes. Moderate increases to Gallente speed/agility doesn't actually change a Minmatar-kiting scenario, nor does it do anything about the more substantial speed penalties incurred by buffing an armor tank.

What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?


I love this suggestion. It can be easily implemented: Some Gal. Ships, namely the Hyperion and the Britux, have a 7.5% bonus to self-rep. The 7.5% bonus to self repair could also (or instead) add to the armor bonus of regenerative membranes. That way first membrane you equip gives you massive (16+37.5) 53.5 % boost to hp. As you add more plates the stacking penalties make them less effective, preventing you from making a completely insane tank. So in practice we would see a gal. ship with three of these, a DCU, a couple energized adaptives and a damage mod, achieving same EHP as it would with plates. Gallente will be able to have a lot of armor and EHP without loosing ttheir mobility.
It can also be used to make other Gal. ships more capable.


I think we're getting closer, but even a 50% boost on a hyperion = 1 1600mm plate. Brutix and myrm would need a 100% boost for it to be the same. Cruisers (T1 and T2) would need a 100% boost for it to be equivalent to a 800mm (300% for a 1600mm). What I'm not sure about off the top of my head is if the second one would (I think 43.5% with stacking penalties) apply to the base HP or the base HP + first regen. If it's the latter, then I can see some fun decisions being made about whether to go amor plate + eanm, or 2 regeneratives. If it's the former, then Gallente ships should be able to get a no stacking penalties bonus to ships with the % bonus (assuming that's even possible due to technical reasons.)

Also, I really wouldn't mind if the regens actually regenned armor at a slow rate al a passive shields. Not enough to be a tank, but enough to not have to rep between engagements, though I'm not sure if that would be entirely balanced.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2011-11-08 23:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Tallest,

I do appreciate the response. However, the changes are slight and not exactly what blasters need to become competitive.
I sincerely hope there are some radical ship stat changes planned for Gallente boats or this TOKEN change of stats for blasters will amount to little to nothing.

Ask yourself, How do the changes made so far overcome the Gallente's major issues of:

1) Making a fast approach into Blaster range without having your face melted off.

2) Having the firepower to overcome said face melting once you have your prey within 10km.

I can answer for you. 1) they don't and 2) while 5 percent is a start... it is quite a long long way from being a serious change. You will need to add another 20 percent to that plus buff gallente ship speeds for it to be anywhere near acceptable.

I do hope that the ship changes are coming in conjunction with these tweaks. It would be a shame to waste the obvious passion and enthusiasm that these possible changes have stirred in the community. I for one do not want another let down.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#290 - 2011-11-08 23:54:01 UTC
I was thinking CCP Tallest... you could do the same thing to gallente vs minimatar as you did to daredevil vs dramiel... of cause minimatar should be fastest, but they don't have to be the most agile also... so my suggestion, make minimatars agility less than gallente and reverse...

Then blaster platforms could use a quick dash tactic, to catch stuff before it accelerates beyound its own speed

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2011-11-09 00:02:31 UTC
indicast wrote:


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.



but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh[/quote]

faster reload means more dps. use your brain.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#292 - 2011-11-09 00:11:55 UTC
Personally I think this 5 second reload time is pretty big. Medium hybrids could probably use 5% more damage (rails in specific), but I think it would be premature to ask for more sweeping buffs to hybrid weapons themselves without seeing what the changes to ship hulls will be. Been doing some light testing with the Talos hull, and going over 1800 m/s now strikes me as something that would be dangerous if applied to other mid-sized Gallente hulls.

Hypothetically speaking if cruiser/BC hulls (brutix/thorax) see a transition towards a shield tanking and/or speed approach with "upcoming" hull changes I would foresee a potential imbalance in small gang warfare with further boosts to the hybrid weapon systems.

Additionally, I'd like to reiterate the point that was made by several other posters in the thread that small hybrid guns really need no more buffing after this latest update.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2011-11-09 00:22:19 UTC
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Been doing some light testing with the Talos hull, and going over 1800 m/s now strikes me as something that would be dangerous if applied to other mid-sized Gallente hulls.


i think its nuts that nano BC's are moving faster than nano HACs. just sayin.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#294 - 2011-11-09 00:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
moved to appropriate forum
Lekgoa
Free State Project
#295 - 2011-11-09 01:06:25 UTC
These are good changes, but I'd like to see buffs to Void (tracking, damage) and Null (range) to really capitalize on the improved reload time. Both are semi-usable now but are fairly lackluster in comparison to Scorch and Barrage. This regen membrane idea people are toying with also has potential, as long as it's ship-specific.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2011-11-09 01:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
Since it's the test server and you can try radical changes...

Why not completely swap the stats for hybrids and projectiles? Also change the offense bonuses of Gallente and Minnie ships (web, falloff, tracking, etc) to reflect their roles. The fast shield tanking Minmatar ships would make better fast tacklers/webbers anyway, and can get in close enough to do blaster damage. And the slow-ass Gallente boats could enjoy the extra falloff because they can't catch up.

I'm not saying it's a perfect or even desireable solution, but why not take a few days and test it out?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#297 - 2011-11-09 01:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I really start to like the new stats from Hybrids even if the ships have lots of issues like speed of blasterboats vs minmatar ships and the very situational optimal bonus...

So here is some stats on fit ships currently on SiS (using Pinky Denmark)
The railgun tracking bonus seems not to be on yet as well as the faster reload

All comparisons w/ best T1 ammo :

Abaddon w/ Tacyons (2 HS) - 657,3 dps (33km+25km) +75m3 drones, 0.01740 rad/sec, 4811 volley
Abaddon w/ Mega Beam (2 HS) - 608,6 dps (30km+20km) +75m3 drones, 0.01914 rad/sec, 3012 volley
Maelstrom w/1400mm Artillery (3 gyro) - 581,9 dps (30km+43,75km) + 100m3 drones, 0.01125 rad/sec, 9648 volley
Hyperion w/425mm Railgun (2 MFS) - 566,8 dps (36km+30km) + 100m3 drones, 0.01203 rad/sec, 3174 volley
Rokh w/425mm Railgun (3MFS) - 509,9 dps (54km+30km) + 50m3 drones, 0.01203 rad/sec, 2682 volley
Abaddon w/1400mm Artillery (3 Gyro) - 436,4 dps (30km+43,75km) + 75m3 drones, 0.01125 rad/sec, 9648 volley

DPS : Abaddon > Maelstrom > Hyperion > Rokh
Volley : Maelstrom > Abaddon > Hyperion > Rokh
Tracking : Abaddon > Hyperion > Rokh > Maelstrom
Range : Rokh > Hyperion > Maelstrom > Abaddon

I didn't really want to bring it up but that optimal bonus for Rokh stinks - give Gallente a RoF bonus and get the Caldari a Straight up damage bonus plz. Very few battles will let a Rokh sit between 36 and 54km anyway without warping out or closing the distance... Optimal bonus should be for smaller ships than battleships IMO and maybe the Apocalypse will agree hehe

Also the railguns still needs a unique role since range bonus works so bad at least for battleships.
Signature Resolution? It's an overlooked possibility
Tracking? Currently lasers have this but it could be changed
Range? Not very good as it is right now
Fastest ROF? I guess that MIGHT be a seller for SOMEONE but not really?

Anyway if the ammo gets straightened out and someone put a fist down for changing the optimal bonus on at least the battleships the railguns starts to be balanced out and working well...

Sniper HACs and BCs w/ best T1 ammo :

(EDIT : These stats include a *5% hybrid damage implant*)

Zealot w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 380,4 dps (22,5+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1004 volley
Muninn w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 340,9 dps (22,5+21,875km), 0.0378125 rad/sec, 2815 volley
Deimos w/ 250mm Rail (2 MFS) - 355,3 dps (18+22,5km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1247 volley
Eagle w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 319,6 dps (40,5+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1121 volley
Ferox w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 306,9 dps (27+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1077 volley
Brutix w/ 250mm (1 MFS) - 332,7 dps (18+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec,1367 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 409,1 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3379 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (2 Gyro) - 363,9 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3198 volley
Harbinger w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 399,4 dps (15+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1401 volley

Looks pretty balanced on the medium long ranged weapons too...

(EDIT : I think this proves railguns need 5% damage more than currently on test server as well as a major boost to tracking since I overlooked that part of the stats last night)

Pinky
mkint
#298 - 2011-11-09 02:11:15 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Also the railguns still needs a unique role since range bonus works so bad at least for battleships.
Signature Resolution? It's an overlooked possibility

I kinda like that idea. Larges are 400m, mediums are 125m. What if hybrids were somewhere in the 275m range? Seems like that would play well with their mediocre volley damage.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#299 - 2011-11-09 02:20:17 UTC
Blasters (larges and mediums especially) probably need more than a 5% tracking buff. They seriously struggle to track anything smaller than a titan when used inside their engagement envelope. Alternatively (and probably, optimally) increase their optimal/falloff ranges so that you can shoot from further away, minimizing the tracking issues and maybe even allowing blasterboats to engage outside of suicidal scram/web range.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2011-11-09 02:21:29 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Sniper HACs and BCs w/ best T1 ammo :

Zealot w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 380,4 dps (22,5+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1004 volley
Muninn w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 340,9 dps (22,5+21,875km), 0.0378125 rad/sec, 2815 volley
Deimos w/ 250mm Rail (2 MFS) - 355,3 dps (18+22,5km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1247 volley
Brutix w/ 250mm (1 MFS) - 332,7 dps (18+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec,1367 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 409,1 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3379 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (2 Gyro) - 363,9 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3198 volley
Harbinger w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 399,4 dps (15+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1401 volley

Looks pretty balanced on the medium long ranged weapons too...

Pinky



thanks for working out the numbers. i highlighted the lulzworthy part. CCP, no one will be flying hybrid platforms.