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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2011-11-08 20:28:11 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Once again, these are very welcome adjustments, but still not far enough.


50% agree. Nice to see work is being done but I still can't shake the impression CCP doesn't understand the underlying issues. How core shortcomings of hybrids are addressed could easily obsolete most of the proposed modifications on test anyhow.

Daedalus Arcova wrote:
For the sake of my blood pressure, I'm just going to convince myself that you're also going to nerf pulse and autocannon tracking or replace all Gallente 5% hybrid damage ship bonuses with10% ones. Twisted


I see no point in increasing hybrid damage when their ships cannot control, to any degree, the range at which the shooting starts.


Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#262 - 2011-11-08 20:29:24 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.
Please be careful with sweeping changes to all blasters. The small blasters are quite fine - the frigate-sized blaster (and rail) setups are already very competitive if not "the best" (Taranis, Daredevil).
mkint
#263 - 2011-11-08 20:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Magosian wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
i really hope the ship buffs are mind-blowing, because as is, rails and blasters are still useless on the current ships.


I feel the same way. Sad Although I would much rather the weapon system be the primary focus of the changes. Moderate increases to Gallente speed/agility doesn't actually change a Minmatar-kiting scenario, nor does it do anything about the more substantial speed penalties incurred by buffing an armor tank.

What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2011-11-08 20:56:51 UTC
mkint wrote:


What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates?


love this suggestion. but...amarr ships would be OP then.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#265 - 2011-11-08 21:00:16 UTC
or how about they make different types of plates mean something like 1600 thungsten adds the most armor but should also add the most mass... what if they made crystal plates do like 10% less armor boost but have 50% less mass adition?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Podcat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2011-11-08 21:00:32 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.


that sounds really nice. the faster reload will be refreshing, however 5% damage isnt enough for blasters. 10% would be a start. also nice to hear hail gets falloff penalty again, it was already good and didnt need buff
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2011-11-08 21:03:22 UTC
Careful now, small blasters (thanks to the ships being the fastest/manouverable) weren't uncompetitive before, don't make them OP.

It's just med and large that had problems.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#268 - 2011-11-08 21:03:22 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.



That sounds awesome, bring it down to about 3 seconds and I think it would be perfect. Still, at 5, it is to the point that I can consider bringing multiple ammo types, especially with the decrease in size. I think 5 is still a long time in most pvp fights, but the 0-1 second would be homogonizing to the enery turrets. 3 seems to be a good compromise in my opinion.

Think about the larger clip size as well as a factor to make them unique (belt loading for lore whores)

Still though, I think this will make life a bit easier for the gallente pilots.

Thanks for listening CCP. <3
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#269 - 2011-11-08 21:05:11 UTC
honestly all i think that is left for blasters is to boost null falloff...

give blasters 5% more damage (with 50% more alpha) and slightly more tracking...

as for rails... if you are going to fix probeing like pattern clerc suggested... then they are pretty darn close to fixed... perhaps spike needs a damage boost?

if not and ccp is standing firm on 150km+ combat being dead... i think rails are going to need alot more work...

also for those who pve please do the 80/20 damage split for the ammo...

that way i can use hybrids to rat against any of the pirate factions with doing either primary or atleast secondary damage...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

indicast
Conquerors Undead Space
#270 - 2011-11-08 21:05:57 UTC


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.[/quote]


but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2011-11-08 21:09:42 UTC
mkint wrote:
What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?



This might work if this kind of bonus was Gallente-only, and it's nice to see someone is looking to kill two birds with one stone (nearly useless item is changed to not only become useful, but further augments other, non-related shortcomings). Frankly, in concept, this is brilliant, but overall it's only halfway there. Blaster boats would still need to close the gap to get a shot off, and that's not happening even with the proposed agi/spd increases. And unfortunately, this doesn't provide hybrid turrets with any kind of unique/passive benefit....something I think should be THE #1 priority of any effort that claims to want to "fix" hybrids.

I still think the easiest answer is to increase blaster effective range to something slightly longer than autos or to make Gallente ships the fastest. Rails would still need a dps boost and that unique hybrid "something."
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#272 - 2011-11-08 21:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Akara Ito
mkint wrote:

What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?


2 words for you:

Super Caps

I'd rather see something like a bonus to plates for gallente ships.
Just as the bonus to MWDs, it would decrease the penalty of plates to a point where it would actually make you slightly faster and more agile with plates fitted if you have the ship skill on level V.
This would encourage the use of plates over hardeners and give Gallente a boost in small scale without affecting large scale to much since large generally sees more logistics.

This would also be a Hull based bonus and it could be applied on a case by case base that than buffign Hybrids into Oblivion.
I'd say a 25 to 30 % mass reduction for installed plates per level. With 25 % per level one would negate the penalty of plates at level 4 and actually gain a mass reduction worth a quarter of the mass of all fitted plates for your ship at level V.

It could replace the repair bonus on the Hyperion for example, or the tracking bonus on the Mega.
The main advantage would be that it could be used where its needed without any kind of colateral damage to other ships.
Podcat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2011-11-08 21:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Podcat
indicast wrote:

but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh


not true. if you run into a kiter you can load null much faster. its a pretty big improvement.

but good point whoever made it, 5% is enough boost for smalls. its mediums and large that need 10% boost, the frigs are pretty good as they are
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#274 - 2011-11-08 21:48:11 UTC
i like the additional improvements. I am still a bit shaky of how the large hybrid turrets will perform so waiting for sisi to update to test them out.
mkint
#275 - 2011-11-08 21:49:14 UTC
Akara Ito wrote:
mkint wrote:
Magosian wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
i really hope the ship buffs are mind-blowing, because as is, rails and blasters are still useless on the current ships.


I feel the same way. Sad Although I would much rather the weapon system be the primary focus of the changes. Moderate increases to Gallente speed/agility doesn't actually change a Minmatar-kiting scenario, nor does it do anything about the more substantial speed penalties incurred by buffing an armor tank.

What if there was a buff to Energized Regenerative Membranes, perhaps remove stacking penalties making them nearly (but not quite) as effective as plates? Does anyone use regenerative membranes anyway? As it is, you'd need 14k raw armor HP for a T2 regenerative membrane to be as effective as even an 800mm plate, which you won't see in anything smaller than a capital. In fact, the most raw HP gallente BS (hyperion) you'd see the equivalent of a 400mm plate. Even if stacking penalties were removed, it would take 3 regeneratives would add the raw HP of 1 1600mm plate on a hyperion. So, what if Gallente active repair ships were given bonuses to using regenerative plates instead?

Just playing with numbers, maybe the fix to the gallente armor/close range conundrum is in the armor modules?


2 words for you:

Super Caps

I'd rather see something like a bonus to plates for gallente ships.
Just as the bonus to MWDs, it would decrease the penalty of plates to a point where it would actually make you slightly faster and more agile with plates fitted if you have the ship skill on level V.
This would encourage the use of plates over hardeners and give Gallente a boost in small scale without affecting large scale to much since large generally sees more logistics.

This would also be a Hull based bonus and it could be applied on a case by case base that than buffign Hybrids into Oblivion.
I'd say a 25 to 30 % mass reduction for installed plates per level. With 25 % per level one would negate the penalty of plates at level 4 and actually gain a mass reduction worth a quarter of the mass of all fitted plates for your ship at level V.

It could replace the repair bonus on the Hyperion for example, or the tracking bonus on the Mega.
The main advantage would be that it could be used where its needed without any kind of colateral damage to other ships.

I was suggesting that a bonus to the regenerative plates be ship based anyway. I hadn't worked out details in my head, but that's CCP's job anyway (besides they tend to ignore specifics on the early term.). The advantage of using regenerative plates over armor plates would be that it takes another obsolete item (seriously, does ANYONE use them?) and make them useful on specific ships. It would also mean players would be able to decide between a slightly less HP regenerative plate or a more HP armor plate, the tradeoff being massive agility gains. And there are other situations where mass comes into play and should be high, especially w-space, (don't jump bridges? I don't have much chance to do those much), and probably others I can't think of just now. Also, what I'm not sure about, which needs to be considered, is the Kronos largely being a PVE boat has a repair bonus, which seems appropriate to me. What about other boats being used for PVE, and the loadouts that rely on that bonus to even function? Tough calls to make. :(

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#276 - 2011-11-08 21:59:38 UTC
Podcat wrote:
indicast wrote:

but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh


not true. if you run into a kiter you can load null much faster. its a pretty big improvement.

but good point whoever made it, 5% is enough boost for smalls. its mediums and large that need 10% boost, the frigs are pretty good as they are


Void has also become usable with the tracking boost so long as you A. manage orbit velocity B. Shoot bigger stuff.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2011-11-08 21:59:48 UTC
Podcat wrote:
indicast wrote:

but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh


not true. if you run into a kiter you can load null much faster. its a pretty big improvement.

but good point whoever made it, 5% is enough boost for smalls. its mediums and large that need 10% boost, the frigs are pretty good as they are


I can't speak to Null S, but Null M and Null L are laughable.
Dro Nee
#278 - 2011-11-08 22:05:43 UTC
I like the blaster changes but I am pretty sure we will not see a major uptick in blaster boat usage after the first month. Having to go ballsDeep just makes it so you are unable to GTFO if things go pear-shaped.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#279 - 2011-11-08 22:09:54 UTC
indicast wrote:
but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh


Because while antimatter does the most damage, if has the worst range. Faster switching times means you can load up your long range ammo and be doing DPS while you're closing distance. It is the same reason energy turrets often carry anywhere from 3-5-8 different crystal types, so they can always be doing optimal DPS.

Having faster switching times means you can now carry your long range ammo, and begin shooting further out while you close in, then switch to anti-matter once you are point blank range.

I started Gallente, and cross trained Amarr, trust me when I say this is a great change.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2011-11-08 22:18:31 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
indicast wrote:
but,why would anyone benefit from that reload bonus?i mean faction antimmater is best ammo to use tbh


Because while antimatter does the most damage, if has the worst range. Faster switching times means you can load up your long range ammo and be doing DPS while you're closing distance. It is the same reason energy turrets often carry anywhere from 3-5-8 different crystal types, so they can always be doing optimal DPS.

Having faster switching times means you can now carry your long range ammo, and begin shooting further out while you close in, then switch to anti-matter once you are point blank range.

I started Gallente, and cross trained Amarr, trust me when I say this is a great change.


I disagree. Autos and pulses will still have dominant range, and there is nothing hybrids have to compete with this. Loading null just means you're going to be doing 20% damage (if you're lucky) opposed to the 0% of anti/void. Hybrid users still need faster ships, range increases to base hybrid turret stats, or dramatic increases to range of t2 ammo. These changes are a good sign but they are NOT the problem-solvers.

Maybe it's different in the frig world, but this is definitely the case in the cruiser/BC/BS world.