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Get rid of gate camps.

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Jason Justice Justice
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-06-27 04:47:16 UTC
Tears, wonderful tears.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#82 - 2013-06-27 09:01:41 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Gate camps were never a problem.

Choke points are.

Eve is a fish bucket.


Yup, it's the choke points that make gate camping possible, they add some interesting tactics to FW too Lol
Dorrann
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-06-27 09:28:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dorrann wrote:
Gates are fine.
Camps are the issue.
Campers blow up everything they are able to catch and kill, regardless of value, be that Isk or Tactical.
IF campers took the time to scan a ship to see if it had anything worth the ammo of killing and released those ships that did not, then you might see some decent gameplay.
However, there is always the Killmail Value and Bragging Rights, and aslong as those things carry any kind of weight, gate camps will remain until there is a better/easier way for the campers to get their jollies.

The problem here isnt the mechanics, its the nature of the human animal.


There's a good reason gate camps operate the way that they do, from my direct experience:

(1) You have to successfully tackle a target to see what's inside it. It takes longer to do a scan and check than it does to simply blow up the target and find out, and it's not any easier to do it.

(2) People aren't always super truthful about how much ISk they have to pay things like ransoms. And they're generally not willing to pay at all, meaning the pirates will have wasted everybody's time to trying to follow your suggestion

(3) Other people may come along at any time and interrupt the proceedings

(4) You'd be amazed at the valuables people will move through lo-sec in hilariously unsuitable ships. Yes even noobships.

What it boils down to is: the optimal strategy is to explode whatever you catch, check the wreck and wait for the next guy. Complaining about pirates doing this is about as useful as complaining about mission runners blitzing for LP.


All valid points, and I accept all of them. I'm not actually complaining about the camps, just suggesting an alternative and looking at the reasons for the current situation. I dont realistically expect CCP to make any changes to this as the Low/Null players would light up like Guy Fawkes.

The "optimal strategy" for short term profit is as you say, shoot now ask questions later, but long term, if you want to make Low/Null more populous, the current strategy will not achieve that any time soon. You can howl all you like for nerfing of HighSec, but past history shows removing things from High just pushes people to be more efficient at using whats left to them, because the other option of Low/Null is not what they are willing to buy into.

From my position, I can see that theres lots of desire to bring more people in to Low/Null, but realistically speaking, if the first thing that happens upon entering low sec is your ship exploding, youre not too likely to want to go back in.

IF the Low/Null community gave new fish a chance to get established, more of them would stay and more fights would ensue, in my opinion anyway.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2013-06-28 07:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Majindoom Shi wrote:
So I would like CCP to some how do away with gate camps.
I Do not have the full details on how this will work out.
My goal is not to lower the amount of pvp but do something to increase it.
Gate camps to me are not real pvp. I would like ccp to implement something to add more pvp to EVE without the use of gate camps. I am not sure what they could do to make this happen but I would like to see more pvp but little to no gate camps at all.

Maybe add lvl 6 agent to low to draw people into system and engage them at the site. Like i said I don't know how to pull this off but gate camps are boring and lame there needs to be a lot more options for pvp


they just need to create a T1 module so we can go through those bubbles, then other tactics will emerge and more challanging PVP will happen

bubbles and gatecamps is one of the biggest drawbacks of the game, like people waiting infront of your appartment throwing a net around you and punching you, pathetic... just for the unskilled ****** groups

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=251761

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
DJ JazzyJeff
Menace 2 Sobriety
#85 - 2013-06-28 08:17:31 UTC
Yes lets make it so you cannot target people within 50 km of a gate or station. Or we can just make the entirety of New Eden high sec. That sounds like a great idea that would not make this game any less fun at all.

Disclaimer: I have never been part of a gate or station camp, I have however run into plenty of them. Funny thing is though I think out of all the times I have run into one I have only been killed I think once, and that is because I was being careless. It is not hard at all to avoid/ escape gate camps.

If it wasn't obvious enough, I don't agree with the OP
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-06-28 08:42:57 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
So please share the story of where the nasty gate camp touched you inappropriately.

It gives the tears posting more backstory!


Hey my name is dexington, and i'm a recovering gate camp victim.

It was a late afternoon and i was on my was back to the base, after relaxing with some exploration. Everything was looking fine, i had send my scout ahead, and while there was a lot of possible hostiles in the system, the gate looked clear.

I jumped into the system, and all hell broke lose. The interdictor, was the first to decloak and drop the bubble, but the others followed quickly, and before i knew it i was in my pod and soon after that back in at the station in a fresh clone.

I still wake up a night screaming having nightmares about that gate camp.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#87 - 2013-06-28 08:54:11 UTC
Posting in a 'I want this sandbox to be limited to how I play the game' thread. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-06-28 09:01:20 UTC
Majindoom Shi wrote:
So I would like CCP to some how do away with gate camps.
I Do not have the full details on how this will work out.
My goal is not to lower the amount of pvp but do something to increase it.
Gate camps to me are not real pvp. I would like ccp to implement something to add more pvp to EVE without the use of gate camps. I am not sure what they could do to make this happen but I would like to see more pvp but little to no gate camps at all.

Maybe add lvl 6 agent to low to draw people into system and engage them at the site. Like i said I don't know how to pull this off but gate camps are boring and lame there needs to be a lot more options for pvp



Dear OP,

there is a way of getting rid of gate camps.
Bring friends.

best regards
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#89 - 2013-06-29 03:58:12 UTC
DJ JazzyJeff wrote:
Yes lets make it so you cannot target people within 50 km of a gate or station. Or we can just make the entirety of New Eden high sec. That sounds like a great idea that would not make this game any less fun at all.

Let's start renovating.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Adunh Slavy
#90 - 2013-06-29 04:55:13 UTC
People whine about not enough people in low and null. Then they whine about altering travel mechanics to make it a bit simpler to travel in those areas.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#91 - 2013-06-29 05:11:13 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
DJ JazzyJeff wrote:
Yes lets make it so you cannot target people within 50 km of a gate or station. Or we can just make the entirety of New Eden high sec. That sounds like a great idea that would not make this game any less fun at all.

Let's start renovating.

Hay GOON! Go to D4KU-5. TEST is always camping Hophib talking smack Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...
DSpite Culhach
#92 - 2013-06-29 07:51:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

There's a good reason gate camps operate the way that they do, from my direct experience:

(1) You have to successfully tackle a target to see what's inside it. It takes longer to do a scan and check than it does to simply blow up the target and find out, and it's not any easier to do it.

(2) People aren't always super truthful about how much ISk they have to pay things like ransoms. And they're generally not willing to pay at all, meaning the pirates will have wasted everybody's time to trying to follow your suggestion

(3) Other people may come along at any time and interrupt the proceedings

(4) You'd be amazed at the valuables people will move through lo-sec in hilariously unsuitable ships. Yes even noobships.

What it boils down to is: the optimal strategy is to explode whatever you catch, check the wreck and wait for the next guy. Complaining about pirates doing this is about as useful as complaining about mission runners blitzing for LP.


Pretty much this,

I'm fairly green at all this, but if I and some mates decided to go hunt people, I'm pretty sure that it would boil down to finding them on gates.

Anyone see any major issues in having player constructed jumpbridges? Did'nt CCP show some screenshots of player constructed gates at one stage? Or was that idea to possibly bridge to NEW areas in space?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Kraal Utrecht
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-06-29 08:30:01 UTC
So at the moment we have tunel travel and what some ppl propose is slingshot travel.
In (probably) Sins of the Solar Empire strategic game - to travel between systems player had to select destined system and reach current systems boundaries to execute jump procedure.
It would be hard to do it here due to no 'go to point in space' command (only go to object/bookmark) so going out of system would still be through gates but arriving could be anywhere at border of destined system with for example 200km (or more?) accuracy from currently destined gate. Also in SotSE travel took some time while in EVE it is instant.

So lets say even 200km accuracy (sphere of radius 200km from destined gate) - great! Safe on jump in for single ship... but what about fleet?
Suddenly fleet is scattered in space of about 32000000km3. So even more advantage for gatecampers.
Well that could be dealt partially by additional fleet command - Fleetjump...
This could eventually lead to lowering gates significance for fleets if we add jumpdrives to some capitalships that could in some way act as a gate... Homeworld-like fleet warp-jump anyone?



*Replacement system for gates?
Combining few ideas that already popped out in few space themed games (for example mentioned SotSE above) should not be that revolutionary. I would support removing gates if this would not mean no piracy, but instead would require some activity and planning instead just using bots to quick-target and execute modules or like some crazy psycho looking at screen hardly blinking to not loose precious seconds when someone jumps in. On other side - now you kinda know/predict where enemy may be. Without it you should expect enemy everywhere.
But seeing how much EVE grew around X3 universe/ideas - gates were, are and will be.

I personally would like to see Homeworld-like movement system - just a wishful thinking.


CCP - Why You No Take Good Ideas From Older Games?!X
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#94 - 2013-06-29 08:44:29 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
People whine about not enough people in low and null. Then they whine about altering travel mechanics to make it a bit simpler to travel in those areas.


Travel mechanics aren't the issue. People with no idea how they work whining for changes which they don't understand the implications of is.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#95 - 2013-06-29 08:55:52 UTC
Dorrann wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Dorrann wrote:
Gates are fine.
Camps are the issue.
Campers blow up everything they are able to catch and kill, regardless of value, be that Isk or Tactical.
IF campers took the time to scan a ship to see if it had anything worth the ammo of killing and released those ships that did not, then you might see some decent gameplay.
However, there is always the Killmail Value and Bragging Rights, and aslong as those things carry any kind of weight, gate camps will remain until there is a better/easier way for the campers to get their jollies.

The problem here isnt the mechanics, its the nature of the human animal.


There's a good reason gate camps operate the way that they do, from my direct experience:

(1) You have to successfully tackle a target to see what's inside it. It takes longer to do a scan and check than it does to simply blow up the target and find out, and it's not any easier to do it.

(2) People aren't always super truthful about how much ISk they have to pay things like ransoms. And they're generally not willing to pay at all, meaning the pirates will have wasted everybody's time to trying to follow your suggestion

(3) Other people may come along at any time and interrupt the proceedings

(4) You'd be amazed at the valuables people will move through lo-sec in hilariously unsuitable ships. Yes even noobships.

What it boils down to is: the optimal strategy is to explode whatever you catch, check the wreck and wait for the next guy. Complaining about pirates doing this is about as useful as complaining about mission runners blitzing for LP.


All valid points, and I accept all of them. I'm not actually complaining about the camps, just suggesting an alternative and looking at the reasons for the current situation. I dont realistically expect CCP to make any changes to this as the Low/Null players would light up like Guy Fawkes.

The "optimal strategy" for short term profit is as you say, shoot now ask questions later, but long term, if you want to make Low/Null more populous, the current strategy will not achieve that any time soon. You can howl all you like for nerfing of HighSec, but past history shows removing things from High just pushes people to be more efficient at using whats left to them, because the other option of Low/Null is not what they are willing to buy into.

From my position, I can see that theres lots of desire to bring more people in to Low/Null, but realistically speaking, if the first thing that happens upon entering low sec is your ship exploding, youre not too likely to want to go back in.

IF the Low/Null community gave new fish a chance to get established, more of them would stay and more fights would ensue, in my opinion anyway.



You're making some very shaky assumptions in your post. I'll list a few of them.

(1) You're assuming that everyone in lo/null wants more people in lo/null (wrong)

(2) You're assuming that theese people who are wanted are unaffiliated strangers, rather than members of the groups already there (very wrong indeed).

(3) You're assuming that there aren't already viable ways to avoid gatecamps (extremely wrong)

(4) You're assuming that I'm "howling" for the nerfing of hi-sec. This is particularly wrong..

(5) You are assuming that the only way to get people into low/0.0 is to make it mechanically more like hi-sec.

In short: nobody in 0.0 wants people to move from hi-ec to 0.0 if the price is making 0.0 more like hi-sec. It's best if the people who like hi-sec stay in hi-sec and the people who want to move to 0.0 put in the minimal effort required learn how to operate in 0.0 rather than spend far more effort in "howling" for changes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-06-29 10:52:27 UTC
Sadly in Eve 99% of pvp is at gates or stations due to how everything works. To stop this ccp would have to get rid of gates and allow free travel some way

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS
#97 - 2013-06-29 11:03:17 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Only way to get rid of gate camps is to do away with the blob warfare, as a way to encourage small gang PvP (which should be the main PvP fare as it encourages having fun with your RL friends).

But the main problem is the cost to PvP is so high. Want more PvP and even attract more PvErs to engage in it here and there, the price for it has to come down. With the inflation in the game (100% ratio in 3 years), that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Good news! Viable PVP ships cost less than a million ISK to fit. 5 million if it's T2 fitted. Gogo!

"…but now only one beacon of light survives.  A stubborn world that dared to defy Mintchip, Lord of the Lollipops."
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2013-06-29 11:03:39 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Posting in a 'I want this sandbox to be limited to how I play the game' thread. Big smile


Hey, that already happens with these big bloc alliances and their influencing.

If the big bloc alliances can do it, well, the little blocs can too.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-06-29 11:11:06 UTC
Sir Mack Inawrex wrote:
Good news! Viable PVP ships cost less than a million ISK to fit. 5 million if it's T2 fitted. Gogo!


Viable webbers/scramblers (since weapon/defense/core skills are going to take a whopping 600 days to level to 4-5, with implants+attributes).

Yeah, I saw it all in null. Guys without the skills happy to be carried (because that is what it is when you can't carry your own weight and be a full part of the team).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-06-29 13:19:35 UTC
Kyle Maltese wrote:
It baffles me why, in the context of the universe and game, that an enterprising corporation hasn't developed some kind of probe that deployed through the jump gate, scans the other side of the gate, then jumps back through.

It would provide a way to scout a gate, but say that it required a few seconds on the other side to do the scan, and there was the potential to destroy it. It seems like a perfectly valid idea.


Enterprising corps have already done this. Its called your corpmate in the fast frigate.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."