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Great idea for Ice mining! Now, let's make Missions a finite resource.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2013-06-12 18:41:54 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


You mean how if you are in say... Dodixie.. you can move a measly 5 jumps and have both Agents for Fed Navy and Fed Intel up to level 4 in more than 3 separate locations?

Same with Amarr (up to Penirgman). Hek and Jita I do not know, but I'll just assume (risky) it also follows suit.

That's not to mention areas BY null and lowsec (Masalle area for instance) has quite a few L3 and L4 agents for thsoe same factions.

This thread has been leading towards finding those agents by way of capping each Agent in it's level of access.

The # of missions able to be ran by everyone would not change.

Having your own station as a "home base" would not change. And like ANY other sector of space (except WH but even then that's argued for market reasons) you are forced to move your stuff around. Be it from PI, manufacturing, ratting, missioning, mining, exploring.

The argument of having to have a ship as an RV is just silly when you are talking about the safety of highsec. Poor argument to live in a trade hub.

Learn to get out more.


Of course if mission stays just as available as they are right now, the point is moot. I am putting this from a point of view of mission being changed to be more rare. If you always have agents withing 3 jump of your regular home abse, it all become moot and the change meant nothing.



Unless we went with my idea of making each Agent do 1 full cycle of each mission per downtime.

For instance... an Agent has in their "list" say 6 missions right? 6 random order, no repetitions. Now, 1 Agent is now "depleted" making you move to the next system and do those 6 missions (same rules apply concerning skipping 2 missions etc). Then move to the next Agent/system etc.

This encourages you to move around the region without having to transplant yourself. It also encourages (not forces) you to move (eventually) to a system closer to lowsec (Like Jel if you live in Dodixie area) and then have to do a mission or 2 involving Egg(next door 0.4 system).

The only thing it would definitely effect, is the ability to sit in one system and spam out bigger missions all day long.

Beyond that, there is no negative side affect, nor would it affect any sort of "playstyle" or "player base" that follows the Eve doctrine anyways.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#142 - 2013-06-12 18:42:24 UTC
Put me down as opposed.

How is it that no matter what is changed in this game, the same ppl are always here claiming that now some new thing must be changed for the sake of EVE? I suspect some of them, especially the known null blobbers, do not and have not missioned in high sec in a very long time. Level 4 missions can take hours to complete. So the idea is what? To have players search for hours to find an agent that will allow them to mission for an equal amount of time? Ridiculous. You can argue that that the increased player circulation contributes positively to pgc, but it sure doesn't sound like an improvement to the player experience nor will it help with retention. This is, not even a well-disguised, nerf Hi-sec (for the sake of EVE) thread.

Imo, players can be forced to circulate via other external factors. I mean, if this idea were carried through to execution, why stop there? Why not have total control over agent missions? Remove agents from stations entirely. Players can "receive transmissions" from agents at a preset interval so that CCP then has total control over the faucet. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, will take you 23 jumps through Gallente space. Will you risk life and limb, pilot? Hell, then you could remove 90 percent of the stations too.

I fully support the idea of players being encouraged to interact. However, that doesn't mean that players shouldn't be able to establish their own base of operations or consolidate their resources. It doesn't mean that minor hubs shouldn't be encouraged to alleviate the pressure off of the major trade areas. Some of these ideas would turn EVE into an apocalyptic world of nomads filled with roaming gangs fighting for scraps. That is not the universe I reside in. I live in a well-established empire and am not going to be dragged into the Thunderdome willingly.

YK
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-06-12 18:44:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I think it all come down to how much movement would be "forced" onto mission runners. The problem comes from ahuling your stuff around. As someone who started running lvl4 not long ago, I don't have a ship that can carry my 1st battleship, salvaging destroyer, ammo, cap booster charge, additionnal mission specific fittings, ... The more jump required just to accept the next mission, the less chance people be willing to put up with it. The solution is likely to get an orca (can a fitted BS fit in it? I don't even know.) and thats additionnal training + isk investement just to more over a speedbump put in place in an arbitrary way.
Look at the limitations you are placing on yourself, and then rejecting ideas based on those self-imposed limitations. -There are people who move things for you for a small fee -There are PVE corps that help you move stuff AND give you someone to talk to (lol) -There are ships you can train for that make you not need that salvaging destroyer -You can fit ships, use implants and train skills to make you less dependent on cap boosters -There are ships and weapons that you can use that don't force you to use ammo you have to haul around (drones, lasers) -As you said, you could train for an orca Etc Etc Etc With your post you just unwittingly demonstrated WHY a change to how missions work would be a good thing for the game, as it is now a new player can just plunk down in one spot and never move, never do anyhting but train skills and make isk to upgrade mission boat. No thinking needed, no creativity, no need to adapt, no need to interact with the rest of the universe except when selling stuff/trading in LP, no reason what-so-ever to innovate or improve or try something new. the ONLY way missions help new players is by boring them enough to try other parts of the game. That's just not good I think.


You won't create any player interaction with that. This is EvE : Alt online. The hauling will be done by hauling alt or mains with hauling skill and people will run in ammo less omnitanked BS and forgo salvaging. At that point, they will have skirted the problem you added with moving mission all around the galaxy and still play thier game as solo player.

You want palyer interaction, you need to make the isk making part of it REQUIRE player interaction. For player who want that, the content already exist, it's called incursion. Player don't team up to do lvl 4 when they are not exactly up to the shelf to do it solo. They grind more lvl 3 while earning more isk to buy ebtter ships and train more skills. What make you think it would change? It's been about a week since odysey and guess what, the ice anomaly are abck to silence mode. The novelty of being sure player are at thier keyboard is gone. Everybody is back to turning on thier harvester and checking the screen once in a while. It more often now but the interaction is just an bad. The most "interaction" you get is a few mackinaw bumping each other while approaching the same ice chunk.

Solo play will stay solo play until it become impossible just like incursion. THen, we just made content overlap each other so I guess we could axe part of it.
Haulie Berry
#144 - 2013-06-12 18:45:47 UTC
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-06-12 18:48:37 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


You mean how if you are in say... Dodixie.. you can move a measly 5 jumps and have both Agents for Fed Navy and Fed Intel up to level 4 in more than 3 separate locations?

Same with Amarr (up to Penirgman). Hek and Jita I do not know, but I'll just assume (risky) it also follows suit.

That's not to mention areas BY null and lowsec (Masalle area for instance) has quite a few L3 and L4 agents for thsoe same factions.

This thread has been leading towards finding those agents by way of capping each Agent in it's level of access.

The # of missions able to be ran by everyone would not change.

Having your own station as a "home base" would not change. And like ANY other sector of space (except WH but even then that's argued for market reasons) you are forced to move your stuff around. Be it from PI, manufacturing, ratting, missioning, mining, exploring.

The argument of having to have a ship as an RV is just silly when you are talking about the safety of highsec. Poor argument to live in a trade hub.

Learn to get out more.


Of course if mission stays just as available as they are right now, the point is moot. I am putting this from a point of view of mission being changed to be more rare. If you always have agents withing 3 jump of your regular home abse, it all become moot and the change meant nothing.



Unless we went with my idea of making each Agent do 1 full cycle of each mission per downtime.

For instance... an Agent has in their "list" say 6 missions right? 6 random order, no repetitions. Now, 1 Agent is now "depleted" making you move to the next system and do those 6 missions (same rules apply concerning skipping 2 missions etc). Then move to the next Agent/system etc.

This encourages you to move around the region without having to transplant yourself. It also encourages (not forces) you to move (eventually) to a system closer to lowsec (Like Jel if you live in Dodixie area) and then have to do a mission or 2 involving Egg(next door 0.4 system).

The only thing it would definitely effect, is the ability to sit in one system and spam out bigger missions all day long.

Beyond that, there is no negative side affect, nor would it affect any sort of "playstyle" or "player base" that follows the Eve doctrine anyways.


Isn.t the EvE doctrine "do whatever the hell you want while accepting the guy next door can do whatever he want too" ? There is nothing in the current mission scheme breaking that rule.

As for moving around, as I said, it depends mostly on the distance involved and the sec status change.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2013-06-12 18:51:14 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Put me down as opposed.

How is it that no matter what is changed in this game, the same ppl are always here claiming that now some new thing must be changed for the sake of EVE? I suspect some of them, especially the known null blobbers, do not and have not missioned in high sec in a very long time. Level 4 missions can take hours to complete. So the idea is what? To have players search for hours to find an agent that will allow them to mission for an equal amount of time? Ridiculous. You can argue that that the increased player circulation contributes positively to pgc, but it sure doesn't sound like an improvement to the player experience nor will it help with retention. This is, not even a well-disguised, nerf Hi-sec (for the sake of EVE) thread.

Imo, players can be forced to circulate via other external factors. I mean, if this idea were carried through to execution, why stop there? Why not have total control over agent missions? Remove agents from stations entirely. Players can "receive transmissions" from agents at a preset interval so that CCP then has total control over the faucet. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, will take you 23 jumps through Gallente space. Will you risk life and limb, pilot? Hell, then you could remove 90 percent of the stations too.

I fully support the idea of players being encouraged to interact. However, that doesn't mean that players shouldn't be able to establish their own base of operations or consolidate their resources. It doesn't mean that minor hubs shouldn't be encouraged to alleviate the pressure off of the major trade areas. Some of these ideas would turn EVE into an apocalyptic world of nomads filled with roaming gangs fighting for scraps. That is not the universe I reside in. I live in a well-established empire and am not going to be dragged into the Thunderdome willingly.

YK



I myself am involved in fleets where we sojourn into highsec to do a run of missions with about 4 people, all pick up 3 missions each, pound them out and an hour later can afford a decent t2 ship to go blow up.

Doesn't really "cost" anything since we used our proceeds to fund the pvp, and we had fun doing it.

Maybe you should take some notes if it takes you a few hours to do 1 L4 mission?

And this is also with sometimes having 1 person play "cleanup" with a noctis. But not always.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
GreenSeed
#147 - 2013-06-12 18:53:44 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#148 - 2013-06-12 18:54:37 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]


If it takes hours to run a lvl 4, you should grind lvl 3 instead.
Haulie Berry
#149 - 2013-06-12 18:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge

If it takes you multiple hours to complete a level 4, you're uniquely bad.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-06-12 19:00:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


You mean how if you are in say... Dodixie.. you can move a measly 5 jumps and have both Agents for Fed Navy and Fed Intel up to level 4 in more than 3 separate locations?

Same with Amarr (up to Penirgman). Hek and Jita I do not know, but I'll just assume (risky) it also follows suit.

That's not to mention areas BY null and lowsec (Masalle area for instance) has quite a few L3 and L4 agents for thsoe same factions.

This thread has been leading towards finding those agents by way of capping each Agent in it's level of access.

The # of missions able to be ran by everyone would not change.

Having your own station as a "home base" would not change. And like ANY other sector of space (except WH but even then that's argued for market reasons) you are forced to move your stuff around. Be it from PI, manufacturing, ratting, missioning, mining, exploring.

The argument of having to have a ship as an RV is just silly when you are talking about the safety of highsec. Poor argument to live in a trade hub.

Learn to get out more.


Of course if mission stays just as available as they are right now, the point is moot. I am putting this from a point of view of mission being changed to be more rare. If you always have agents withing 3 jump of your regular home abse, it all become moot and the change meant nothing.



Unless we went with my idea of making each Agent do 1 full cycle of each mission per downtime.

For instance... an Agent has in their "list" say 6 missions right? 6 random order, no repetitions. Now, 1 Agent is now "depleted" making you move to the next system and do those 6 missions (same rules apply concerning skipping 2 missions etc). Then move to the next Agent/system etc.

This encourages you to move around the region without having to transplant yourself. It also encourages (not forces) you to move (eventually) to a system closer to lowsec (Like Jel if you live in Dodixie area) and then have to do a mission or 2 involving Egg(next door 0.4 system).

The only thing it would definitely effect, is the ability to sit in one system and spam out bigger missions all day long.

Beyond that, there is no negative side affect, nor would it affect any sort of "playstyle" or "player base" that follows the Eve doctrine anyways.


Isn.t the EvE doctrine "do whatever the hell you want while accepting the guy next door can do whatever he want too" ? There is nothing in the current mission scheme breaking that rule.

As for moving around, as I said, it depends mostly on the distance involved and the sec status change.


Yes you are indeed right. It is not against the rules.

Then again, some people only work hard enough to not get fired without a care for the company they work for. Some people like their jobs and try to improve their daily lives.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2013-06-12 19:01:21 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]



See my post about doing more than 12 missions in 1 hour with a fleet of 4. Citation granted.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2013-06-12 19:05:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]



See my post about doing more than 12 missions in 1 hour with a fleet of 4. Citation granted.


Waiting for the "but you were in a fleet so it dosen't count" retort...
Zircon Dasher
#153 - 2013-06-12 19:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
The best idea would be to move them to an incursion style system. Broadly: Missions are accepted in space and automatically complete. Each agent has several missions that can be accepted simultaneously and each mission has a timer till it automatically fails (including standing hits). Multiple people can accept the same mission, so it becomes a race to be the person/group that 'finishes' it. No bounties on the rats just mission payout +LP.

Full disclosure- i cannot claim credit for this idea. It was floated by someone a long time ago (do not remember who).

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#154 - 2013-06-12 19:17:21 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Then again, some people only work hard enough to not get fired without a care for the company they work for. Some people like their jobs and try to improve their daily lives.



The former work to live, not live to work.




If you like your job, you aren't doing it properly

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#155 - 2013-06-12 19:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.


I'm neither incompetent nor under-equipped. Missions can and often do take an hour to complete. A mission like "Worlds Collide" consists of 4 rooms that require alternate forms of tanking/ammo. In my case, this requires a refit. I run it in 2 segments. Factor in noctis time and it absolutely takes over an hour. The Blockade? Five bs spawns. Excessive noctis time. Close to an hour. Guristas The Assault? Close to an hour. Sure you can burn through trash missions like "cargo delivery" and "stop the thief" more quickly, but the missions worth doing, the ones that pay well - take more time.

Cite that.

YK
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#156 - 2013-06-12 19:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Yonis Kador wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.


I'm neither incompetent nor under-equipped. Missions can and often do take an hour to complete. A mission like "Worlds Collide" consists of 4 rooms that require alternate forms of tanking/ammo. In my case, this requires a refit. I run it in 2 segments. Factor in noctis time and it absolutely takes over an hour. The Blockade? Five bs spawns. Excessive noctis time. Close to an hour. Guristas The Assault? Close to an hour. Sure you can burn through trash missions like "cargo delivery" and "stop the thief" more quickly, but the missions worth doing, the ones that pay well - take more time. Cite that.

YK


OMG someone who thought they were smart enough to comment in a thread about missions who doesn't know how to run missions.....

But hey, that's EVE missions for you, content so easy you can suck at it for years and not even know it, where as the rest of EVE PVE( and EVE's pvp) shows you right up front that you suck, by killing you and making you get better (or unsub because you can't be helped).

My Machariel has yet to meet a mission (or DED complex) that takes anywhere near an hour solo.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2013-06-12 19:26:09 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

Unless we went with my idea of making each Agent do 1 full cycle of each mission per downtime.

For instance... an Agent has in their "list" say 6 missions right? 6 random order, no repetitions. Now, 1 Agent is now "depleted" making you move to the next system and do those 6 missions (same rules apply concerning skipping 2 missions etc). Then move to the next Agent/system etc.

This encourages you to move around the region without having to transplant yourself. It also encourages (not forces) you to move (eventually) to a system closer to lowsec (Like Jel if you live in Dodixie area) and then have to do a mission or 2 involving Egg(next door 0.4 system).

The only thing it would definitely effect, is the ability to sit in one system and spam out bigger missions all day long.

Beyond that, there is no negative side affect, nor would it affect any sort of "playstyle" or "player base" that follows the Eve doctrine anyways.

That would only work if a particular agent was only unlocked after another was depleted. Otherwise the agents would all deplete as fast as the players on after DT could deplete them as they naturally distributed themselves to increase their chances of getting missions. No one would move in the course of a day, they would just have an initial spread followed by small local movements then nothing would be left. I'd personally expect to not ever run missions again as I'm not going to low/Null for that BS (especially near a highsec border system with this mechanic) and high would likely have been long depleted by the time I logged on.
Lexmana
#158 - 2013-06-12 19:28:32 UTC
Missions should be limited and auctioned to the lowest bidder.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2013-06-12 19:29:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

OMG someone who thought they were smart enough to comment in a thread about missions who doesn't know how to run missions.....

But hey, that's EVE missions for you, content so easy you can suck at it for years and not even know it, where as the rest of EVE PVE( and EVE's pvp) show you right up front that you suck, by killing you and making you get better (or unsub because you can't be helped).

My Machariel has yet to meet a mission (or DED complex) that takes anywhere near an hour solo.

So how long does WC take you, and blitz or kill all on both paths?
GreenSeed
#160 - 2013-06-12 19:32:04 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge

If it takes you multiple hours to complete a level 4, you're uniquely bad.

are you dense?

he said they took long, you said they don't... if both statements point to two states of the same thing, how can one be more valid than the other when no [citation] establishes one as common knowledge, assuming common knowledge can be accepted when making the assertion to begin with... which it isn't. something that's covered on the Wikipedia article you cited, genius. the problem is not with the statement, its with your request of a citation to argument it with.

your stupid joke of [citation needed] was used at the wrong time, in the wrong way, and worse yet, boring. please don't do it again.

also, are you people insane?

lvl4s have been brutally nerfed two times already, they don't make money. not a little, not "some", they don't make money at all. drops are crap, salvage is crap, bounties are crap. if anything they should be buffed to make them competitive with other high sec activities. maybe adding missions that require fleets, while making the existing lvl4s a little easier and with lower payout.

when mining on a 2 month old character makes as much money than actively flying a 2 year old combat trained pilot on a 1.5b isk ship, then there's something wrong.

not to mention this whole thing is based on "the ice change" which was crap to begin with and is clearly not "fun game play" at all. ice is still just as afk as before, its still just as "bottable", except that now there's 4hrs of downtime between mining.

that's all... nothing else changed.