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Great idea for Ice mining! Now, let's make Missions a finite resource.

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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#161 - 2013-06-12 19:32:38 UTC
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#162 - 2013-06-12 19:32:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

OMG someone who thought they were smart enough to comment in a thread about missions who doesn't know how to run missions.....

But hey, that's EVE missions for you, content so easy you can suck at it for years and not even know it, where as the rest of EVE PVE( and EVE's pvp) show you right up front that you suck, by killing you and making you get better (or unsub because you can't be helped).

My Machariel has yet to meet a mission (or DED complex) that takes anywhere near an hour solo.

So how long does WC take you, and blitz or kill all on both paths?


Blitz, MWD Mach, 25 minutes tops.

Haven't had it since I've started back using a CNR, but like every mission that isn't EB 5/5, AE Bonus room or a couple others, it's childs play.

Hell, it dioesn't take much loner in a maelstrom even though the mael can't hold a candle to my mach or nightmare.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-06-12 19:32:47 UTC
Totalrx wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
And on the same note:

Missions are too damn easy. There should be a real chance of failing a mission. I'm not solely talking about the risk of losing a ship during a mission, but the possibility of failing the mission even if you survive it.

The current mission setup completely ignores the whole, "The player is not entitled to success" philosophy, as they pretty much guarantee eventual success.

For example: If my mission is to go assassinate some spacedude, why is there a 0% chance of him warping away and escaping?


^^^ This ^^^

I can run all L4's solo's in a cheap CNR fit (768m including the hull) without having to warp out on any of them except maybe Enemies Abound 5 of 5. I don't run Angels bonus room with that fit either.

But, missions need to be much more dynamic. The mission guides need to be nullified.

Right now, it's pull up the page for that mission, warp in, follow the guide, salvage/loot, wash, rinse & repeat. Every mission is scripted down to what NPC will aggro when. That needs to be changed. How many NPC's warp in, what distance, what configurations, etc needs to be changed. Neuts and vampires need to be one of those things that NPC's can randomly fit.They need to rep one another and use drones as well.

Of course, this may discourage some players to leave the game. It may encourage others to join.

My friend plays Star Trek Online because many of the missions require you to fleet up with other players to complete and there is a chance of failure if they don't do it correctly. If Eve met those same standards, he'd drop STO and play Eve.

The big question is: Does Eve's engine have the ability to make missions dynamic and not scripted for every element of the mission?


The devs did some 'mission creation tool' enhancements way back .. for the (not so) epic-arcs

At least 1 dev has commented in the past that they would like to reduce the pvp/pve fitting disparity, and have pve builds that more closely resemble pvp builds.

There's been a lot of posts over the years that have covered this ground, some of them have been pretty good with the ideas raised not seemingly read by the devs, a lot of them however have been mostly garbage ... like the OP in this thread.

The big issue is, does the enhanced dev-tool allow for dynamic randomized non-scripted missions
The next stumbling block is npc design & implementation .. all 3 areas need to be addressed, but at the same time the content needs to remain accessible and engaging for the playerbase, not an easy challenge I think Cool
Haulie Berry
#164 - 2013-06-12 19:36:43 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.


I'm neither incompetent nor under-equipped. Missions can and often do take an hour to complete.



I like how we've downshifted from hours, plural, to hour, singular. Backpedal faster, friend.

Quote:
A mission like "Worlds Collide" consists of 4 rooms that require alternate forms of tanking/ammo. In my case, this requires a refit. I run it in 2 segments. Factor in noctis time and it absolutely takes over an hour. The Blockade? Five bs spawns. Excessive noctis time. Close to an hour. Guristas The Assault? Close to an hour. Sure you can burn through trash missions like "cargo delivery" and "stop the thief" more quickly, but the missions worth doing, the ones that pay well - take more time.

Cite that.

YK


Gosh, maybe you should include the time it takes you to spread-sheet out the best isk:lp conversion rate? Roll

Bolded/underlined bits are where I lolled.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#165 - 2013-06-12 19:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
GreenSeed wrote:


when mining on a 2 month old character makes as much money than actively flying a 2 year old combat trained pilot on a 1.5b isk ship, then there's something wrong.


If this is actually happening to you, it only means you are doing something wrong, because the above sentence isn't true at all in any universe, but especially the one we inhabit.

EVE missioning has got to be one of the worst things going in mmo gaming if they invite this kind of fail. "Hours" (what the guy said that people are responding to) to do a mission filled with super stupid super squishy AI spaceships? Jeez.

Lvl 4 missions didn't take "hours" when I started doing them in 2007 with a Raven then CNR, WTF are you people doing nowadays?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#166 - 2013-06-12 19:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
To be fair, when I did Angel Extravaganza for the first time ever, and only had a meta-equipped shield Myrmidon as my best mission ship, it took almost 2 hours…
Haulie Berry
#167 - 2013-06-12 19:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge

If it takes you multiple hours to complete a level 4, you're uniquely bad.

are you dense?

he said they took long, you said they don't... if both statements point to two states of the same thing, how can one be more valid than the other when no [citation] establishes one as common knowledge, assuming common knowledge can be accepted when making the assertion to begin with... which it isn't.


Except... pretty much everyone knows that missions don't take hours. We've all done them at some point. If one guy comes along and claims that they do, anyone who has ever run a mission immediately knows that he's either lying, or incompetent.


So, since you're the kind of stupid that requires everything drawn out in crayon: There are a finite number of level 4 missions.

Can you name a single one that requires hours, plural, to complete? If you can't (and, believe me, you can't) guess what?

You're both ******* wrong, and we're right back to my initial assertion: It's technically true that it "can" take hours to complete a mission, if you're particularly ******* slow.
Zircon Dasher
#168 - 2013-06-12 19:43:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Lvl 4 missions didn't take "hours" when I started doing them in 2007 with a Raven then CNR, WTF are you people doing nowadays?


Full kill missions in TEngu, Legion, Loki......etcLol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-06-12 19:43:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:


when mining on a 2 month old character makes as much money than actively flying a 2 year old combat trained pilot on a 1.5b isk ship, then there's something wrong.


If this is actually happening to you, it only means you are doing something wrong, because the above sentence isn't true at all in any universe, but especially the one we inhabit.

EVE missioning has got to be one of the worst tings going in mmo gaming if they invite this kind of fail. "Hours" (what the guy said that people are responding to) to do a mission filled with super stupid super squishy AI spaceships? Jeez.

Lvl 4 missions didn't take "hours" when I started doing them in 2007 with a Raven then CNR, WTF are you people doing nowadays?


It's harder when looking at porn... Everytime you over volley something because you were wacking it is time lost. There is also the "I am not skilled enough to tank all of that stuff while I try to gank it all". That means you ahve to warp out and back in. THere are also bad players.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2013-06-12 20:06:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.

[citation needed]



See my post about doing more than 12 missions in 1 hour with a fleet of 4. Citation granted.


Waiting for the "but you were in a fleet so it dosen't count" retort...



Lol right? Because :options:.

Although, I can solo some L4s in a navy omen, and def solo multiple L4s in a BS without needing anyone else or take longer than 15-20minutes (omni tank; too lazy to fit proper hardeners or bother reading guides).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2013-06-12 20:09:52 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Then again, some people only work hard enough to not get fired without a care for the company they work for. Some people like their jobs and try to improve their daily lives.



The former work to live, not live to work.




If you like your job, you aren't doing it properly



That's an interesting outlook on life.

Granted I don't WANT to work, but that doesn't mean I need to hate my job. I love my job. I defo like the company I work for. But if I did not have the responsibility of paying bills or needing money, I wouldn't show up "just because". I would have a bit more fun staying home all day until I went batshit crazy.

If you can't like your job... it isn't me who is doing it wrong for liking my job =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2013-06-12 20:11:02 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Level 4 missions can take hours to complete.


[citation needed]

I mean, don't get me wrong: Your statement can be technically correct, in the sense that it could take an incompetent or under-equipped player hours to complete a mission, but generally speaking, they're not multi-hour tasks on average.


I'm neither incompetent nor under-equipped. Missions can and often do take an hour to complete. A mission like "Worlds Collide" consists of 4 rooms that require alternate forms of tanking/ammo. In my case, this requires a refit. I run it in 2 segments. Factor in noctis time and it absolutely takes over an hour. The Blockade? Five bs spawns. Excessive noctis time. Close to an hour. Guristas The Assault? Close to an hour. Sure you can burn through trash missions like "cargo delivery" and "stop the thief" more quickly, but the missions worth doing, the ones that pay well - take more time.

Cite that.

YK



Salvaging is not required for mission success. It takes you over an hour to be done with a mission. But not everyone else as any sort of standard.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2013-06-12 20:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Unless we went with my idea of making each Agent do 1 full cycle of each mission per downtime.

For instance... an Agent has in their "list" say 6 missions right? 6 random order, no repetitions. Now, 1 Agent is now "depleted" making you move to the next system and do those 6 missions (same rules apply concerning skipping 2 missions etc). Then move to the next Agent/system etc.

This encourages you to move around the region without having to transplant yourself. It also encourages (not forces) you to move (eventually) to a system closer to lowsec (Like Jel if you live in Dodixie area) and then have to do a mission or 2 involving Egg(next door 0.4 system).

The only thing it would definitely effect, is the ability to sit in one system and spam out bigger missions all day long.

Beyond that, there is no negative side affect, nor would it affect any sort of "playstyle" or "player base" that follows the Eve doctrine anyways.

That would only work if a particular agent was only unlocked after another was depleted. Otherwise the agents would all deplete as fast as the players on after DT could deplete them as they naturally distributed themselves to increase their chances of getting missions. No one would move in the course of a day, they would just have an initial spread followed by small local movements then nothing would be left. I'd personally expect to not ever run missions again as I'm not going to low/Null for that BS (especially near a highsec border system with this mechanic) and high would likely have been long depleted by the time I logged on.



You're assuming the available missions are to everyone. I specifically mentioned "per pilot". Means you (and only you) would have to find another agent after you exhausted his available missions. That would also apply to me, and the next person, on a singular level.

Not public level like ice roids.

You would have all those missions available whenever you logged on. Just couldn't use the same agent to repeat a specific mission more than once per day.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#174 - 2013-06-12 20:19:59 UTC
If I had enough foresight to realize in advance what controversy that one "s" was going to generate, I would've certainly used a more generic term. Why all the discussion about my loot gathering time? Yonis is one year old. At most, I can run 8 missions per day, earning me between 400-500 million isk (in high sec) and can't run more than 8 because they take hou... a lot of time to complete. I manage the aggro. I don't warp out and rep. I guess my adherence to Amarr ships may be part of the problem as Yonis Kador won't be flying a Machariel or a Nightmare any time soon, but at my current 4-5000 dmg missions take time to complete. I can't even cycle my weapons quickly enough to complete "Worlds Collide" in 25 minutes. So I guess I'll never win EVE.

But what's most frustrating is that this isn't even the subject of my original comment and we've now spent two pages arguing semantics. What's the point of all this? To prove that running missions in packs allows them to be completed more quickly? Or to argue that players with leet skillz and the best ships can complete missions more quickly? You don't say. What about the hordes of players who don't run in packs or yet have leet skillz and the best ships? Their games should be made more difficult? Why? As a group, those players probably contribute more financially to this game than the vets. Which takes me back to my original point: the change would increase player circulation which would contribute to pgc, but it would not necessarily improve the player experience nor retention rates. It would also not contribute positively to establishing a corp's base of operations or minor trade hubs in game as many characters would become roaming nomads.

YK
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#175 - 2013-06-12 20:39:56 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Haulie Berry
#176 - 2013-06-12 20:40:39 UTC
The issue is less about the "s" and more about the failure to qualify the statement as a reflection of your personal experience.

Here's a fixed version:

It can take me hours to complete some missions.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#177 - 2013-06-12 20:43:03 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
A more dynamic mission system would be nice.

There's something absurd about the same guy hiring you to go out and kill a pack of pirates....


...and then telling you to do it again, ad infinitum. It's silly and not very fun.

It would be interesting if NPC organizations were a bit more "alive", with active relationships, economic concerns, supply needs, etc., that missions could revolve around, and if the missions themselves were a bit less straightforward.

IIRC (I haven't played it in quite a while) The mission system in X3 is kind of like this - if a factory station asks you to bring them some energy cells, it's because they actually need energy cells.

And why do they always know the exact coordinates of the objective? It might be interesting if you actually had to find your mission objective (there could be some new tools to help with this) instead of just receiving a bookmark for the exact location.

A finite supply of missions that are more involved and take longer, but give better pay (per mission) would probably be an improvement over the farm-the-same-agent-until-the-end-of-time status quo.


This was a very constructive reply. Thank you.

And I agree. The PVE system needs a complete overhaul, from bottom to top. Recently we had the quality and standings systems redone, and even more recently the epic arcs. Before that, it was the COSMOS agents that are long-since forgotten.

But it all boils down to the mindset that PvE < Everything Else. Mining, at the very least, has some form of competition involved in directly obtaining the resources. Mining and industry FIT in EvE. But the NPC mission experience does not.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2013-06-12 20:48:23 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

You're assuming the available missions are to everyone. I specifically mentioned "per pilot". Means you (and only you) would have to find another agent after you exhausted his available missions. That would also apply to me, and the next person, on a singular level.

Not public level like ice roids.

You would have all those missions available whenever you logged on. Just couldn't use the same agent to repeat a specific mission more than once per day.

I didn't see that in the post I replied to this was on an individual basis. Though even then I don't see much migration, just moving near clusters of agents and stopping once depleted. I know I won't depleting 6+ missions on most days anymore as is.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#179 - 2013-06-12 20:51:14 UTC
ISD Tyrozan wrote:
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.


Thanks for finding the right area for this! You are the best!

xoxo

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2013-06-12 21:03:57 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
If I had enough foresight to realize in advance what controversy that one "s" was going to generate, I would've certainly used a more generic term. Why all the discussion about my loot gathering time? Yonis is one year old. At most, I can run 8 missions per day, earning me between 400-500 million isk (in high sec) and can't run more than 8 because they take hou... a lot of time to complete. I manage the aggro. I don't warp out and rep. I guess my adherence to Amarr ships may be part of the problem as Yonis Kador won't be flying a Machariel or a Nightmare any time soon, but at my current 4-5000 dmg missions take time to complete. I can't even cycle my weapons quickly enough to complete "Worlds Collide" in 25 minutes. So I guess I'll never win EVE.

But what's most frustrating is that this isn't even the subject of my original comment and we've now spent two pages arguing semantics. What's the point of all this? To prove that running missions in packs allows them to be completed more quickly? Or to argue that players with leet skillz and the best ships can complete missions more quickly? You don't say. What about the hordes of players who don't run in packs or yet have leet skillz and the best ships? Their games should be made more difficult? Why? As a group, those players probably contribute more financially to this game than the vets. Which takes me back to my original point: the change would increase player circulation which would contribute to pgc, but it would not necessarily improve the player experience nor retention rates. It would also not contribute positively to establishing a corp's base of operations or minor trade hubs in game as many characters would become roaming nomads.

YK



To answer about difficulty-

If you aren't skilled in equipment or support skills to efficiently solo a L4 in a good amount of time, and you could make more isk/hour by joining a fleet...

Well, join a fleet.

Don't look at it as a punishment. That's not what this is about.

But Eve should NOT be about doing 1 mission hub for your entire life.

The fact you have to explain or give reason as to why it takes you so long to complete a L4 is testament to this.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.