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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#661 - 2013-05-11 00:45:14 UTC
Penny Ibramovic wrote:

Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.

A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.

Not a dev, obviously, but I really like this suggestion. It also makes it easy for you to build your own formation and then lock it together so you can move it quickly, and if there's a neat lock button (maybe on that radial menu, mmm?) then you can get access to both move in formation *and* move separately without any super-secret hotkeys you don't know about if you don't ask a friend.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
blink alt
Doomheim
#662 - 2013-05-11 00:54:01 UTC
It would be nice to be able to change the default AU size of the pinpoint formation. Having it default to 4 aus can still get sigs just barley outside of probing range if you are cenetered on the celestial
Rammix
TheMurk
#663 - 2013-05-11 01:13:49 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Does it make sense for these to be seperated?... why the seperation of the two types of scans? One scans for anoms and the others ships, but realistically, why can't a scan just be a scan? Its weird that the scanner is autoupdated and the directional scan is still manual...

D-scan gives much more information and that information is more important for survival than a list of anomalies.
Making d-scan automatically cycle would make so many things so fricking awfully casual.

Roberto Duggano wrote:
Add an infopanel for scan results. Call it exploration. Then all is well. IMHO

If you mean a new window, then nnnoooouuuu.
If a new tab.. well, how it can be better than returning results the old way?

CCP Paradox wrote:

Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others.

Then the camera should also be centered on the probes when you close the map for a moment and then reopen it. Last time I checked (yesterday) the camera would center on my ship. It's uncomfortable in big systems.

Also, I didn't read the whole 30+ pages, sorry if someone already mentioned this:
- there is no 'time left' column in the scanning window, so are the probes "immortal" now?
- scanning radius isn't showing on the map, and in the scanning window it reflects radius change only when scan cycle is done - I mean you can't see the radius while you're changing it

And one more thing,
when you scan down a signature and ignore it in your scanning window it doesn't disappear from the overlay.
Is it intended? If yes, why?

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#664 - 2013-05-11 01:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Penny Ibramovic wrote:

Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.

A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.

Actually it's already available, look better. Big smile

Hint: hold SHIFT.

EDIT2: Right click in the scanning window on a probe lets change its scan radius separately.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#665 - 2013-05-11 01:22:45 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
No offense to the devs, but I've always felt that Jack Miton's method was the best scanning method (8 probes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag

Allows both wide area scans and pinpoint scans simultaneously. I think I still prefer it as the scanning method of choice.

yk


This is how I scan but with DSP and combats. Not 8/1 but 8/2. Changing 1 probe with all hightlighted will maintain the ratio. Then alt drag to bring the probes in.

Can ID 40+ sigs in under 30 mins. Actually more sigs is easier because you'll ID more per scan.

But emergent gameplay is irrelevant.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#666 - 2013-05-11 02:04:51 UTC
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:
The 'problem' with the sensor overlay, is that you don't have the information available at a glance.

Since you now make anoms (and grav sites) more easily available, heck, even signatures can been pinpointed quite well without using probes; using DSPs would give a very clear list of changes in your system. A perfect defensive mechanism.

The DPSs and the System Scanner lets you easily filter out all the things that you trust. But with the Sensor Overlay you have to keep panning around and around, to see whether a new wormhole opened up, meaning there's a possible threat.

Yes, I am talking about W-space.

Removing DSPs makes things a lot harder actually. Sure, new players don't have the skills to use them. But I trained a very long time to be able to use them, making it easier to see what's going on in our W-system. And now you take that away.


The Sensor Overlay looks really nice. I'm not sure how Fozzie(?) described the wish for it; more realistic? But nothing beats having a single list with results. And that's how I'd see it when I'd be in a space ship too, on some panel, or a 3d-hologram of the system;; the System Scanner.


I would hope 20,000 years into the future we would be beyond listings and more into 3D immersion >.>
Octoven
Stellar Production
#667 - 2013-05-11 02:05:53 UTC
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Ischie wrote:
Deep Space ProbesQuestion


Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad.


The new system scanner does not give the same info, but it does have an infinite range.


Infinite? No.


Infinite...uhh yes. The range is not limited to 32, 64, or 256 AUs it literally is infinite and will detect any signature within the system no matter how far out they are.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#668 - 2013-05-11 02:12:16 UTC
Exodus 3D Gidrine wrote:
I can load 20 Probes into the "Expanded Probelauncher II" and im launching 7 probes in a formation.

So i can launch and recall 2 formations. Then i have 6 probes left in the launcher. And Im not able to launch these 6 Probes.

So please set the max-value to 21 (3*7 probes) instead of 20 probes.


This was confirmed in an earlier post...like page 28 i think. Players will have the option to choose 1-8 probes to launch if you dont use the preset formations. So no need to adjust the capacity.
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#669 - 2013-05-11 02:17:18 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hey all.

Lovely feedback. Keep it coming.
You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about.
Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203

Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread:

Quote:

Deep Space Probes??!?

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



there are few things that, the sensor overlay CANNOT replace DSP

1. DSP can FIND if any structure / ship / drones &probe , sensor overlay cannot show them

2. Launching DSP and press scan can show all signal ID in the scanner window. Sensor overlay just mark them on screen, how can we count if there's so many signals?

3. DSP can also pinpoint ships (BB for example), the awareness of DSP and combat probe is quite extreme

4. http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/ you should know what is it, This helps us to figure out which signals should we scan which is worthless


We cannot see sensor overlay can do those things list above, so we should not delete DSP
Octoven
Stellar Production
#670 - 2013-05-11 02:17:46 UTC
Rahvin Dex wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hey all.

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



DSP - Navigating wormhole space

First, let me explain how you navigate wormhole space with DSP, and then you might understand what an ordeal this is without DSP's.


You have all seen the swift and bitter links by now, and understand that a single DSP is used to let you know the base signature strength of wormholes. This is a HUGE deal when it comes to navigating WH's.

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html

Say your in a Class 5 wormhole, and want to find a connection to other class 5's (or in my case nullsec connections). From the lists at swift and bitter you see that the signatures your looking for has a base strength of 0,20%. So you do one scan, and ignore EVERYTHING that does not have cirka 0,20% on your scan. Suddenly you have ignored about 75% of the signatures that you dont want. The autoscan does not replace this as it just lets you know its a wormhole, and not which class the wormhole is.

Now here is the kicker Some wormholes have up to 30 signatures in them, if not more!! It's soul crushing to go through all of them. I dont know if there is a max amount of connections a single wormhole can have, but I'm fairly sure I have had upwards to 10 in some. And those were desired conncetions, so its not even counting those wormhole signatures I 'ignored'.

So by just looking at the signature strength of a signature you can deduce alot of information, if you have the knowledge (or link to that knowledge, lol). This also removes a huge amount of time spent scanning down signatures to see if its what you want, repeatedly. Removing this is like taking the colour out of a painting.

All of This is just a part of what makes exploration a very deep proffesion to get into. Its very rewarding once its mastered and developed into a talent. Pilots with the knowledge and the know how are a huge asset to fleets and groups of players. The removal of the signature strength, DSP and other changes people have brought up, takes away a depth to exploration that the dev team does not seem to realize. So I quote again:


CCP Tallest wrote:
Hey all.

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more.

The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses.


Right sooo you would stand behind those who say scanning has been dumbed down and is too fast and easy to do, yet you would love to keep the probe in the game that does exactly that type of action?
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#671 - 2013-05-11 04:16:47 UTC
all CCP had to do to improve the probing experience was to allow a user to define his own pattern in which the probes are launched. that is it. nothing more. nothing less.

what do we get? this terrible overlay (that i can guarantee 99% of players will never turn on, i mean look at it, it is ridiculous, flipping your camera all around to look for sigs) and the removal of deep space probes.

it makes you wonder if the devs working on this ever played the PVP aspect of this game and hunted other players down using probes. i feel that CCP has lost its focus. i felt that with the walking in stations. i feel it again.

i am waiting for the expected response from CCP declaring that they understand the PVP aspect of Deep Space Probes and feel that it was an exploit or something like that to use them for these PVP purposes(and therefore there removal is justified in their eyes), even though Deep Space Probes only fit in a combat launcher (in other words they were made for ship scanning - but lets ignore that fact).

i can only guess that the DSP removal is a further step toward changing eve from the harsh game it was to something extremely carebear friendly, and this is just another small step in that direction.


Flux Astraeus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#672 - 2013-05-11 05:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Flux Astraeus
God just read through the changes.
I dunno what they are thinking here but to me they are terrible!
The only thing I see here is they are making scanning easier for the beginner and budding explorer, but for a scanning vet they are making it worse.
I know CCP have good intentions and usually they are good at implementing positive changes, but in this instance what the hell?
It would appear the changes are not being looked at from both sides of the spectrum.
I'm all for new players advancing quickly there skills but you don't seem to have taken the seasoned explorer into account at all here?
1. Removing Deep Space Probes, wrong they are very useful, now how are you going to differentiate quickly what sigs to scan down?
2.7 probes at once, with no option to split formations , omg what are they thinking?
3. No 8th probe , there goes pvp Multi location scanning.
4.Set probe formations without the ability to manipulate positions or probe amount is like waving to everyone in system look Im here now.Not to mention the other obvious draw backs from this alone, NO!
4.Reducing the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.WTF so now there is no clear elite cryptography skill set as it is now easier to train up max skill set, so all those ppl that have all Astrometric skills out to V just get nurfed out?
Anyway I for one am not liking any of these changes myself so far.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#673 - 2013-05-11 06:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Ali Aras wrote:
Penny Ibramovic wrote:

Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.

A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.

Not a dev, obviously, but I really like this suggestion. It also makes it easy for you to build your own formation and then lock it together so you can move it quickly, and if there's a neat lock button (maybe on that radial menu, mmm?) then you can get access to both move in formation *and* move separately without any super-secret hotkeys you don't know about if you don't ask a friend.

You can already do this. If you press shift it allows you to manipulate the precise position of the probes, and when you let go you can move all the probes as a group. People really need to test this out on Singularity, and at least spend a little bit of time figuring out the system before jumping to conclusions and posting them on the forum. This is incorrect and I can see a lot of people repeating this misinformation throughout the whole thread.

I was one of the biggest critic of this change, but CCP is moving in the right direction now with allowing multiple probes (ie 8 probes) again. The DSP thing is the only real issue now, but I think its just one of those things we will have to forget about even though it did offer some nice options. The only thing they need to fix now is an option to display all the sigs on the scanning overview and I will congratulate CCP on a job well done with these scanning changes.
Robert Fish
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#674 - 2013-05-11 06:12:23 UTC
Please keep the deep space probe for all of the reasons that people have stated and most importantly so legacy deep safes can still be found.

To make the old skills still relevant make the new mods require the appropriate skill to 5
so
Scan Acquisition Array II needs Astrometrics Acquisition V
Scan Rangefinding Array II needs Astrometrics Rangefinding V
& Scan Pinpointing Array II needs Astrometrics pinpointing V.

Thank you for separating combat sites and wormholes into their own scan group it is a much needed change, will be interesting to see if less wormholes get 'activated' now as people skip them while looking for plex's.
Reaper Chambers
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#675 - 2013-05-11 06:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaper Chambers
So, with the skill modifier reduction, those of us that have trained that up quite high will get those sp back... Right?

I mean after all, removing the dsp gimps the whole exploration process enough already, so please give back the sp that went into the skills while they still had the high modifiers.

And who makes these decisions without consulting the players that do both PVE and PVP? Do devs not pvp and see the poor choices being made here? Are they all carebears catering to the all mighty sub? I sure hope not, but wow does the evidence scream it.

Please reconsider the probe based exploration changes. Just make it to where you get to pick a pattern to deploy probes in if you want. That is all anyone could really ask for.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#676 - 2013-05-11 07:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
Octoven wrote:
Rahvin Dex wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:


The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more.

The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses.


Right sooo you would stand behind those who say scanning has been dumbed down and is too fast and easy to do, yet you would love to keep the probe in the game that does exactly that type of action?



Ah but its a time and skill sink (more $ for CCP) and adds to sandbox game play, you cannot fly a Battleship with Frigate skills, u sink your time into it for the rewards, same with exploration,

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#677 - 2013-05-11 07:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
meanwhile on another thead:


Oxandrolone wrote:
I was at the security round-table at fanfest and apparently there was a client injection that did this, they discovered people were using it and that it was really awesome so they built there own feature and implemented it :D

The injection did what, launch a set number of probes and place them? If that was the case why in hells name did not CCP just steal the idea and add it to the existing code, make a couple of extra buttons for the functionality and
build additional shiny, shiny for the masses on that?

If CCP had gone this route, the on-board scanner would be the overlay scanner, it could list as well as show in space the sites below DED 3 rating, its not complex as the data is only retrieved once from the server and used twice on the client, this gives both don´t change and oh new shiny camps what they require.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Rammix
TheMurk
#678 - 2013-05-11 08:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
After multiple tries with separate changing of scan ranges I came to conclusion that the scanner must have an option to save player-made formations. Not just save the last one, but let us choose between 2 or more custom formations.
Otherwise it's too numb and strict.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#679 - 2013-05-11 08:10:23 UTC
I say it almost everywhere and repeat here: Eve needs more customizable settings throughout its all UI, in-game.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#680 - 2013-05-11 08:40:36 UTC
Ok, keep the DSP then but make signature signal strength completely random.