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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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State War Academy
Caldari State
#881 - 2013-05-13 23:35:48 UTC
It's really hard to believe that a single person who ever actually used scanner functionality ingame on Tranquility okayed these changes before they made it to Singularity. Between having to spin the camera around to see the results and the results disappearing after mere moments without populating scanner window, the "in space" view of anomalies is a joke and I can't imagine it amounting to anything other than some noise every time you change system or undock before you bring up the now ridiculously less powerful scanner window and do everything as you did before Odyssey.

The scan results list lost almost all of its functionality just to accomodate the stupid, ever-redrawing-while-scrolling "progress bar" scan result strength view, clearly this is more important than the actual scan progress bar before the results appear. If this had been tested under ~real life~ serious-internet-spaceship-business circumstances, you'd have noticed within moments that scrolling through 20+ (for pve, hundreds in pvp) effectively unsorted scan results is a completely unacceptable user experience. You're replacing a working part of the game with some "shiny" obviously halfassed flat-UI design mockup.

Maybe "it works" in contrived development environment tests where there's exactly one anomaly in the system and you mark your "it works, ship it!" checkbox once you've successfully confirmed that the scanner still manages to detect anomalies and move on to confirming that the stargate jump animation hides all your windows and brackets every time you jump even if you're in the map view and can't see the stargate, good job, high fives all around, and I suppose the shiny in-space effect made for a nice fanfest presentation, but this whole revamp adds exactly nothing to the real workflow of your players, who don't log in to ogle the light effects and then log off again but are using the scanner the umpteenth time per day to find the next site to run.

I don't really share the "you're dumbing down the game and robbing me of my deserved advantage over those good-for-nothing can't-do-3d-geometry-in-my-head casuals" sentiment, but as it stands the trilateration minigame is completely pointless. If you require seven probes, launch seven probes at once, and instantly arrange them into the one good trilateration formation, then move all seven at once so that the overlap of all seven scan volumes covers the location of the target, the system might as well just require a single probe instead of shitting up the map with seven pretend-independent circles that mostly cover area I specifically don't give a **** about. Just get it over with and throw out all the crummy trilateration math, make it work with one probe and maybe give people who trained Astrometrics 5 a second probe so they can keep combatscanning on two celestials at once. But don't just give us this bullshit.

I, for one, shall sell all my spaceships and dedicate myself to 24/7 pro-gaming EVR oculus rift action if this system ships without a more fundamental revamp than has been promised so far.
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#882 - 2013-05-13 23:36:14 UTC
Now I get a feeling, that like it happened with "UI", we will receive something that is known to be broken (for they don't have enough time to do it right now, "exploration expansion", yeah), instead of something working fine. And then all those broken parts will be fixed for about half-a-year. How nice.

EVE is a good game because it is challenging. Now you are going to take a big part of challenge from exploration.
State War Academy
Caldari State
#883 - 2013-05-13 23:41:05 UTC
Also while a constant annoyance when going on scanning binges yet only vaguely replaced to exploration, of course you couldn't be bothered to fix the completely unnecessary multi-second freezes from creating a bookmark while the People&Places window is up and has the bookmark folders expanded with non-trivial (read: not a dev account on the test server) amounts of bookmarks, having animations in the scan results window is clearly more important than being able to record the scan results without prohibitive delays.
#884 - 2013-05-14 00:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
After trying out the scanning changes I see that for the most part they are being received with about the amount of disdane that I expected.

Tell me CCP how is the new way the results for the scanner presented better than what we had previously?Roll

  1. Personally I find them less easy on the eye to read with the new bold bigger font against that green.
  2. Each result now takes up more space meaning yet a bigger scan result box required to see the same amount of results.
  3. Where did the sort option go? I can no longer even sort my results by signal strength.

I can easily find more problems / dislikes with this new so called improved scanning system than just the few I have listed for you here. So once again please tell me what I am missing and what the improvements are. Shocked

On a positive note Elite Dangerous is out next year.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.

State War Academy
Caldari State
#885 - 2013-05-14 00:07:28 UTC
And what a ******* surprise, you ~streamlined~ away the time-remaining info for probes so now I get to write down when I launched probes my probes and make sure to check if it's been an hour since every so often! This sure is an interesting way of making the game more engaging and challenging!
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#886 - 2013-05-14 00:41:05 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Regarding removing options – there has been some criticism that we’re removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what we’re doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if they’re used to scanning differently. We’ve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But we’re not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version – basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.

I'm looking forward to the dev blog.

The thing is, most players who do not already scan aren't going to see the options to scan differently. Previous to this update, many people who tried scanning but did not invest themselves in exploration / ask a friend were not aware of the hotkeys to move probes together and resize them together. In the current state, they won't be aware of the hotkeys to move probes separately or resize them individually-- and they won't have to, because there's the workable diamond shape already provided.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing! New players will have an easier time getting into scanning as-is, especially with the sensor overlay.

It's kind of trivial, but holding shift while performing fiddly probe adjustments *feels* more awkward than holding it for movement did. I always want to take my finger off the shift key when I tilt the map to see whatever dimension I wasn't looking at (I suspect because I'm viewing it as a different action -- adjust probe shape, adjust map, adjust probe shape, push button), and removing my finger from the key while I'm trying to readjust the probe itself makes the probe's arrow disappear, so I've lost my feedback on its placement until I depress the shift key again. While the functionality is still there, it *feels* more awkward.

If it's workable, it'd still be best to have a lock/unlock toggle on the probes themselves -- on the radial buttons or the selected menu or the scanning interface. That way, you can rearrange your formation with full feedback and it's more visible than the modifier keys. -- my blog

Stellar Production
#887 - 2013-05-14 01:00:17 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.

As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point.

but you still cant move 7 pawns at the same time can you?

CCP like any company makes mistakes, look at Incarna, they got their balls kicked, Ody looks at this time capable of delivering the same again unless they listen, throw out their preconceptions and develop the game instead of change it to reflect what they see other companies doing as they all rush for short term cash. If you care about CCP, you personally would want to keep its unique selling points and remember that the game has kudos for its steep learning curve, harshness of consequences, the meta game environment, the inventiveness of the players (which exposes the limitations of a small design team that always wants shiny) and most importantly the SANDBOX that is only limited by the players intellect, thats what keeps people subscribing and draws long term players in (better have 1 man for 5 years than 5 for 1, for long term CCP survival.

Your 7 pawn analgoy is not valid. In chess 500 years ago you can only move one pawn at a time, even today it is one pawn at a time. You CAN move 7 probes at a time in either Retribution or Odyssey...this hasnt changed, thus your analogy is invalid.

If a company had to consult each of its subscribers before developing began...NOTHING would be done. It is great that EVE has awesome sandbox qualities and unqiueness; however, when you have such a huge ass steep cliff of learning curve...what do you off subscribers to WANT them to learn?

What I am hearing is, "I had to learn a long time and invest lots of skill time and real time to devlop my skills and now new players can do that from day one, so im pissed." Not every player in every game has the same learning experience, I suppose you would also like to have the return of learning skills too?? After all THAT is a steep learning curve having to train a whole month before even advancing in the game. This is not appealing to new players, and with new players we get new things to shoot at.

Domanique Altares wrote:

Not really.

When I have to start keeping pencil and paper notes to replace what was formerly a readily available, copy-pastable UI list in game, that's not enhancement, that's a step backwards.

A step backwards is your opinion.

To be honest if you took a new player and a vet and gave them both interfaces, the new player will choose the new way, why? Because the entire process is more streamlined, yes it needs a bit of work but to them it is the better option. They don't have to stare at a database of results. Now a vet...OF COURSE they will choose the older option why? Because they are used to the way the information is laid out and given. The functionality is still not there, but I would rather look at a Ui enhanced overlay then fiddle with an antiquated database look.

You all may as well get used to these types of UI changes or find another game because the UI is old and the scanning system and inventory is just a start. Im fairly certain this is an area where CCP will focus a lot of attention on the next couple years. Get over it and adapt like the rest of us. A company is not going to halt development of reworking UI just to appease some vets. There may be some alternatives to how they are choosing them, but it will change in time. I am fine with them adding column sliders and such, such tweaking will come as needed, but I doubt it will ever completely be reversed. Time for EVE to enter the second decade with a new and fresh look. Great work CCP, I look forward to the changes you have planned for sisi over the next few weeks.
#888 - 2013-05-14 01:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: M'aak'han
I finally got some time to test this new exploration stuff. I haven't yet found an ex-radar/archaelogy site so couldn't test the minigame there, thus I will focus my feedback on probing.

Overall, I'm very disappointed with many of the new features and removal of functionality.

- New system overlay :

Good : 1. looks good as eye-candy, 2. it's functional in alerting when there a sig/anomaly in the system.

Bad : 1. unlinked to the probing system, as overlay doesn't update with resolution of signatures by probing them out. Needs harmonizing ASAP if you want newer players to not get confused by what will look like a bug to them. 2. Having to pan the camera everywhere to see where this damn icon might be is a pain (though that's not really the goal of the overlay, is it?) 3. The icons are way too large, and prevent manual aligning to the direction they are at. Really needs fixing.

- Probes :

Launching several probes at once is convenient for the prober, but as stated by someone else, very bad as the time needed to launch several probes was the only window to catch a stealther. Now, this window is reduced to almost none. I would be in favour of keeping the automatic launch of several probes with one click, but still launching them one after another with the launcher cycling. Best of both worlds IMO.

Being able to move probes' boxes without the labels interfering in the system map is so coool, thanks a thousand times for that. It has been a major pain, glad to see it gone. Big smile

Moving probes in a formation without resizing their scanning radius requires having shift+alt pressed. Very. Bad. Maybe shift could be replaced with a toggle key instead, to switch between formation/individual probes boxes?

Spread formation has significant gaps in it. Useless as is. I got it you acknowledged this and will change it. Besides, spread formation defaulting at 16 AU makes the feature somewhat strange. Allow it to set max probe range, as it can't be used to pinpoint anything, I don't see any harm in doing so (especially as DSP are removed, at least having combats at 64 AU from the go would compensate)

Pinpoint formation is ok, nothing much to say about it.

Need customizable formations, as the two you provide are not always adapted. At least, a third option should be there at Odyssey release : all probes stacked (like how it is today), because breaking the pre-made formations to do something different is REALLY difficult.

We need the 8th probe back!!! As well as only one! But I got it you said this was coming back, so fine.

Removal of DSP. I'm disappointed, but we'll adapt. I'm concerned about the legacy deep safe spots though, as probing the outer edges of a large system is not easy to execute properly with small radius probes.

Automatic recall of probes at session change. This one aggravates me particularly. What the hell is this about? I see you thinking it will ease the process for many users, but that's pushing it too far.
- I want to leave my probes in the position I left them in a system ! Especially useful in a constellation/W-system defence scenario. Or I want to be able to leave them and have my prey drop its guard by thinking they have been forgotten there. This automatic recall goes against tactical uses of probes.
- And if you where thinking about the poor guy who would get stranded in a WH by forgetting his probes, there is already a warning pop-up window stating so each time you use a wormhole, so there's really no need to have them come back in cargo. Remove this feature, please !!

- Probing window (system scanner) :

As it is, it's esthaetically better, but we're unable to sort results by anything other than signal strength. Sorting results must make it in at release, or the release of the new system should be postponed, because there's no way I'm going to edit a new filter everytime I chase something different.

When selecting multiple probes in the list, and say I want to deactivate them, I now have to right-click or use the drop-down menu on the side instead of the functional tick box we have now. That's more mouse actions than currently required, so I don't like it.
Worse still, when doing so, the highlighting of the probes is lost after the action is performed. This is very bad, because I want to manage two groups of probes sometimes, and this requires onlining and offlining half of them all the time. It only required 1 click of a box until now for every off/onlining. I want this kept in the new system.

Overall, I think this system is not well ironed out yet, and its implementation should be postponed to take the large amount of feedback you got into account.

We won't hold a grudge if you delay the release of the new system, promised !! Blink
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#889 - 2013-05-14 01:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Ogeko
check probe scan time, new scaning modules and things decreasing scaning time, i have big confiusion, i have 98,8% bonus to scan time with new modules, skils, implants and stacking penelty on modules, and it still take suspisus long time to scan,
ofcourse i not including in this probe warping time

scan time;
astro 5 [25%] + astro acquisition 3 [15%] + implant [10%] + first module [20%] + secend module [20 x 0,87 = 17,4%] + 3rd mod
[ 20 x 0.57 = 11,4]
= 98,8% x 10 sec = ? check results at sisi with timer, or i make someting wrong here?

return scan progres bar, is nice to see when something is doing when you wait for scan results, you have place for it betwen
scan formation buttons and map buton

make radial menu for scaner on right clic and on left click scaner, or something like that, i wish to get one clic to get
scaner, seven probes at one click is one step forward this is nice, but two clic to scaner is one backward, and i not like

scaner overley show basae signal strength, dsp scan method with dsp also shows base signal strength at 256 au scan, but dsp shows this at the same pleace where you later scan sites and you have this info all the time when you scaning, in system scaner window

[1:0 for dsp]

to chceck results from sensor overlay you must spin you ship, dsp not have this problem becouse you have nice list in
system scaner window

[2:0 for dsp]

if you wish check basae signal strength with scaner overley during probe scaning when you need, you must close solar system map, and start spining your ship to find icons with site info, with dps you not have this problem, becouse you have this info in the same place where you have scaning info later, and you have this info all the time you scaning if probes don't overlap dsp, or you can make one screen shoot, for scaner overley first way is imposible and secend with screen shoot make it more dificult becouse you need a lot of screen shoots.

[3:0 for dsp]

dsp use system scan filter that mean, you can choose intresting you sites from list. and you get only info for this type of
sites you are intrestes, sensor overlay not show ships and structures, and this is very needed in pvp, recon, and scouting, combat and core probs have smaller range so your chanse for cach somone for pvp is smaller

[4:0 for dsp]

info from dsp can be refreshed by making secend scan, and you can check if new sites spawn, or new hostiles comes to system, to do that with sensor overlay you need to dock and undoc or jump from system and jamp back, wich is ridiculus

[5:0 for dsp]

sensor overlay have nice new graphic animation, and you have only one type of probe in inventory, that make little more easy
to handle with inventory

[5:1 for dsp]

so then, fix requests; scaner overley if is active, should show info about sites around in space, in system scaner window,
and maby at solar system map

scaner overley, should use system scaner filter, whis wich is selected for probes in this time, something like overview settings
for d scan, and dsp use it now

scaner overley must have refresh option, this can be analyze buton, so if scaner overley is active you refreshing scaner overley when you making system scan wich is the same, and you automaticly refresh scaner overley when you making probe scan. 7 probes and dsp works exactly in this way now.

scan probes always should be lunched with max range

scaner overley should have radius range at least of 1024 au or biger, becouse some systems are biger, one dps have 256au and you can luch 8 of them, so you can cover almost any system but even with them, are some sytems where you must move them becouse system is to big, so if you give to small scaner overley range wich work like dscan range, you get that there will be some systems with blind spots for scaner overley, but dsp not have this problem becouse you can move them. so scaner overley range must be big or treat like infinite for signle solar system.

scaner overley, if is active with out probles in space, should show at site info basae signal strength of site.
if lunched with probes, and probe range overlap or you start scaning site, then at site info you should be two nambers with
signal strength, one still from scaner overley, and secend number additionaly to basic signal strength, modifaied by probes, in system scaner window, so there should be two signal strength info in site info "basae signal strength"and second modified by probes, you can do this now with dsp by making screenshot or if you have god memory, or if your other drones not overlap dsp, now you can have 8 probes, one set of 7 core/combat and 1 dsp, nice if you impreve this.

now to change scan probe range you need to grab and drag blue spahre (not like this method i more prefer this secend) or
select probes righ click at selected probes and you get first menu with 4 options; recover probe, destroy probe, deactivate
probe, scan range. when you go scan range option you get all ranges option to chose, my offer is to delate secend menu,
delete in first menu scan range option, and put in first menu all ranges form secend menu so you have all in first menu

during rage change of scan probes, by dragging blue sphere , digits of probe range in probe window info should change also, becouse zooming in and out sometimes is confusing, and then you change/drag range at intuition, and this not work very well

secend issue is selecting probes in on board scaner window, now to selecet one probe you need to one left click at it, to
select all you need click one from top or form boton and with shift key left click to top or botom probe, my request here is
to make that to select all probes by only two left clicks with shift at any proble in probe info window; you click two times
left with shilf at any probe and you get all probes selected. or only with two left clicks, and center probe comand move to
two left click with shift.
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#890 - 2013-05-14 01:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Ogeko
now when you press analyze when you scaning all selected probes in system scaner window going to be deselect so, now if i
wish to change the range by selecting probes not dragging blue sphere i need to again selec them all, after every scan, they
should be selected after scan.

is nice you wish make scaning and exploration more common and easy by giving ppl faster acces to dsp scaning method by
removing deep space probe and give sensor overlay, but sensor overlay must work like dsp, if not can, back dsp probes.

but still there are ppl wich say that ds probses and 8 probes set is better and maby they have rigth i don't know, maby give as dsp and scaner overley, and then everyone can chose wich method he like more.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#891 - 2013-05-14 01:43:58 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Regarding removing the DSP – the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a “cheating” way as it didn’t really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything).

A good sentiment in my opinion - but at the same time you make this information (even easier readable as base signature strengths without any modifiers) available in the new 'onboard scanner'. Nevermind that you don't need Deep Space Probes to do that whole band filtering. I think a little randomization in sig strengths would have beem better.

You also seem to want probing done easier for newer characters (all the modules that up your probing stength). This is IMO totally how to not do it - because it means that seasoned explorers will be even faster scanning down stuff. And i am also not sure if a kinda newbish character should be able to scan down some of the currently hardest to scan sites.
Lowsec Border Marshals
#892 - 2013-05-14 01:53:34 UTC
aside from a few fanboys like Octoven (who is probably a ccp dev posting undercover) i see that most replies are against these changes.

i reiterate: all CCP needed to do was allow user defined launch patterns. THAT IS IT. are you even reading this thread CCP?

leave your overlay in as a novelty item for new players, but do not force it upon us.

Daniel Plain
#893 - 2013-05-14 02:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Octoven wrote:

the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
#894 - 2013-05-14 02:41:57 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?

And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched?

You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish.

Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing.

single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something.

One man's finesse is another man's annoying mouse slamming pin-point moving scream fest of rage... I say good riddence, and hail the new system!!!... I personally like it very much so far from what I see on SISI...
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
#895 - 2013-05-14 02:47:47 UTC
Why no T2 Core and Combat Probes?

and Why are the rigs for CPU, and + to Scanning so damned hard to fit... I can fit 2x Grave, but nothing else... waste of one rig slot.. ok, so go to one Grav and then try to put on two CPU rigs... *FAIL*... drat... ok um... hacking rig... and oh wait... nope... ok... so I have this ship, and I want to rig it... and the rig calabrations for scanning rigs and others that I might use can't fit... can we have a look see at this?

I like the modules - mids, and that is nice, but yes wouldn't a script actually be better? then if you want all three - three modules and three scripts, or if you want to simply change them out for a speciific you can still say... put that mid slot analyzer or hacker on your scanning frigate?...

I felt that once I fit out a T1 scanning ship to be all it could be - it could scan very well, but couldn't probably do the site, without a refit or a re-ship... just due to the fitting of modules for it, and not even trying to combat or tank it... just trying to load it up with the things for doing the site... but maybe I am just doing it wrong, I will give it some more tries tonight on SISI and see if what I am saying makes any sense to me after that.

Stellar Production
#896 - 2013-05-14 02:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
Daniel Plain wrote:
Octoven wrote:

the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.

When you buy a new car, you dont sit there and read the manual for like 3 hours before trying it do you? IMO, if a player needs to use third party websites or even look at CCP's tutorial for attempting to explain such a complex feature for such a basic part of the game...well that feature needs looking at. The scanning system works fine for you the way it is, so in essence everybody's whining and complaining is because you have spent time in game trying to get an edge over another player and suddenly you have a smaller gap between you.

Just like when CCP added in the current scanning system and it pissed off players back then as well. You will all just get over it once you get used to it.

By the way, I would appreciate it that if you were going to properly quote me saying something, you quote my exact wording and not replace it with your own mumbo-jumbo, thanks Big smile
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#897 - 2013-05-14 03:05:11 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued.

-- THIS.
You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.

BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.

p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.

THIS ten times over.

even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.

Also this feature is used deliberately by wormholers who want to quickly jump through a hole to check where it leads, and then come back and reconnect to continue scanning, without having to re-lay their probes back out into their preferred formation.
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#898 - 2013-05-14 03:29:12 UTC
incrase max range of combat probes to 96 au
core probes to 224 au
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#899 - 2013-05-14 03:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
Not sur if this has changed or not but I would like to have the probes left behind as the are great for dirtying up a bubble camp for cloakers and what is going to happen to the probe market?

Or at lest give me a safety to turn off

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Lucas Irvam
The Anodyne Consortium
#900 - 2013-05-14 03:53:10 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Octoven wrote:

the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.

Pretty much exactly this.

What I love most about the game, usually described as the 'steep learning curve' that gets referenced at every turn, is the sheer breadth of knowledge and applications of that knowledge that CCP opens up to players. Combine the depth and nuances of some of these game mechanics with a sandbox environment/community, and wow. CCP sets the framework, but it's in the deep cracks and corners of that framework that players push the limits of applying those game mechanics. It's emergent gameplay, and it's what Eve does better than any other MMO out there.

Octoven wrote:
IMO, if a player needs to use third party websites or even look at CCP's tutorial for attempting to explain such a complex feature for such a basic part of the game...well that feature needs looking at. The scanning system works fine for you the way it is, so in essence everybody's whining and complaining is because you have spent time in game trying to get an edge over another player and suddenly you have a smaller gap between you.

I couldn't disagree with this more. It seems almost the exact opposite of the philosophy that people fall in love with if they try Eve for the first time and it gets under their skin. There are MMO's out there in which you don't really have to pay that much attention to the tutorial and you'll be just fine, more or less. Eve is not one of them.

They can make the profession more inviting to new players (if that's even the point of all this - I don't really know) without lowering the skill cap so drastically.

At this point the ball is really in CCP's court, and we'll have to see what they do with it. If I had the time or the know-how, I'd go back through and quote roughly 27 posts in this thread. DSP removal (and the emergent and innovative PvP/PvE uses thereof), T1 mods replacing months-worth of skilling, probe formations, combat scans that take all of 3 seconds, WH implications, the changes rolling out with no CSM input, the no-probes-left-behind magic, and so on. This is one of those rare cases in which it's not overreaction, and it's not resistance to change - it's a logical reaction from a segment of the community that regularly uses features of the system that CCP is getting ready to destroy without having given any good reason for doing so.