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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

First post First post First post
Author
Rahvin Dex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2013-05-10 22:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rahvin Dex
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hey all.

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



DSP - Navigating wormhole space

First, let me explain how you navigate wormhole space with DSP, and then you might understand what an ordeal this is without DSP's.


You have all seen the swift and bitter links by now, and understand that a single DSP is used to let you know the base signature strength of wormholes. This is a HUGE deal when it comes to navigating WH's.

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html

Say your in a Class 5 wormhole, and want to find a connection to other class 5's (or in my case nullsec connections). From the lists at swift and bitter you see that the signatures your looking for has a base strength of 0,20%. So you do one scan, and ignore EVERYTHING that does not have cirka 0,20% on your scan. Suddenly you have ignored about 75% of the signatures that you dont want. The autoscan does not replace this as it just lets you know its a wormhole, and not which class the wormhole is.

Now here is the kicker Some wormholes have up to 30 signatures in them, if not more!! It's soul crushing to go through all of them. I dont know if there is a max amount of connections a single wormhole can have, but I'm fairly sure I have had upwards to 10 in some. And those were desired conncetions, so its not even counting those wormhole signatures I 'ignored'.

So by just looking at the signature strength of a signature you can deduce alot of information, if you have the knowledge (or link to that knowledge, lol). This also removes a huge amount of time spent scanning down signatures to see if its what you want, repeatedly. Removing this is like taking the colour out of a painting.

All of This is just a part of what makes exploration a very deep proffesion to get into. Its very rewarding once its mastered and developed into a talent. Pilots with the knowledge and the know how are a huge asset to fleets and groups of players. The removal of the signature strength, DSP and other changes people have brought up, takes away a depth to exploration that the dev team does not seem to realize. So I quote again:


CCP Tallest wrote:
Hey all.

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.



You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more.

The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#642 - 2013-05-10 22:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Ok, my feedback so far:

Probe Scanning:
  • 8 probe launcher - is a must
  • launching 1 probe - is a must
  • probe recovery on jump/dock must be optional - is a must
  • top table headers like probe N; size; range and bottom table headers like sig name; type; strength - are needed (for sorting by name/type/strength and so on)


if we could save our own formations that would be great and whoever will do it will become CCP Masterpiece Big smile

Sensor Overlay: (because DSP)
  • If Sensor Overlay is a DSP substitution please make that you don't need to spin your camera around to see all of the sigs (or add all of the sigs in the scanner table bottom window)


Exploration site signature name changes (from Radar to Data Sites; from Ladar to Gas Sites and so on) I don't really get why you did that.
Were those names extremely sophisticated and hard to remember for new players, no I do not believe they were. Were they cool, brought more sci-fi feel and immersion, yes they did.
You made this all astonishing work with system jump transition, undock without loading bars to make your players more immersed. Then changed the most simple things that gave your players this immersion and sci-fi feel for years I do not get that.
So please rename our Radar/Gravimetric etc. signatures back. Pretty please Blink

Bugs: (I will post it here, cause I don't know where to post this)
some wrecks become blue all of a sudden (feature/bug?)
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2013-05-10 22:37:25 UTC
Anita1 wrote:

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.


so much bullshit ccp, sorry to say that, but your overlay is just annoying and pretty much useless, the reason we want dps back is cause we have the whole system covered with 1 probe and dont miss a new sig, your useless overlay doesnt show us the whole system without moving the camera around all time, wasting time plus risk to miss a new sig, we dont want that, so give us dps back

also since i didnt see feedback from you guys, keep alt instead alt + shift, no need for a new shortcut



This.......... all of it.
QT McWhiskers
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#644 - 2013-05-10 22:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: QT McWhiskers
Sorry if this has been asked before, not wanting to read 33 pages of this thread. Is anyone else not seeing any scannable sigs of anomalies at all? I expected to start in my wormhole because of the server update, but started in 6-c. Form there I am flying to amarr then jita, then rens, then dodi. Scanning every system along the way (except jita of course). I am not finding any signatures at all.
Rahvin Dex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2013-05-10 22:43:49 UTC
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

I did NOT train Astrometics V for 15 days just to get some extra scan strength/deviation whatever.
I want my DSP BACK, NOW!
YuuKnow
The Scope
#646 - 2013-05-10 22:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
My 1st impression.

1. Still getting used to it, as I had gotten used to my 8 probe technique, but it would be nice to have at least a small icon to where the other probes are at all time. Even though we see their scan range, its still would be more graphically intuitive to have at least a small dot present where they are centered at.

2. I can't see any timers to how long I have left on my probes. Is it there and I'm just missing it, or was it removed completely?

3. Selecting a signature on the UI or scanner view should automatically scroll and hightlight the signiture on the scanner menu. Doesn't look like its doing that at the moment.

yk
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#647 - 2013-05-10 22:57:40 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:

2. I can't see any timers to how long I have left on my probes. Is it there and I'm just missing it, or was it removed completely?

Probably removed, that might explain probe recovery on system jump/dock.
Space Wanderer
#648 - 2013-05-10 22:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Another issue with scanning that probably nobody noticed (yet)

I did some more tests. Particularly I tested the scanning mechanism and formula, to check whether it was somehow changed. The formula doesn't seem to be changed, nor has been the cap on the signature size of the ships been modified, but I observed another issue that aims at dumbing down scanning beyond any reasonable limit.

I think that we are all aware that when we try to scan a target using only three probes, the obtained result should consist in two dots (each one with half signal strength). This is as the rules of geometry dictate that it should be.

Now it turns out that scanning a signature with only three probes on SISI returns only one dot, albeit at 50% of strength. This is ANOTHER dumbing down of system, and breaks completely any attempt of verisimilitude of the scanning system. There is NO WAY that it could be justified by any possible law of geometry. It has been inserted just to make things simple, because there is no way that a UI no matter how advanced, would be able to understand where the signal really is.

I have no idea whether this issue is a bug, or it is by design. I hope for the former, because if it were the latter this would be ANOTHER point where CCP really dropped the ball. To be on the safe side I submitted it as Bug Report #157705. Please CCP, tell me that this just a bug, and not by design. Straight
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2013-05-10 23:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Still trying to figure out what is going to happen with industry upgrade ore sites. I couldn't find any systems with an industry upgrade to test out how that would work. I did however find a wh and the grav belt showed up as a combat anomaly, which I just warped to without probes.

I'm assuming that you go into a system and the system scanner will find the grav sites including industry upgrade belts. This isn't going to be really a great idea imo. Sure, more conflict, yadi yada...but combat pilots are not always present to defend a system. Furthermore, hotdroppers will have a field day with this. It'll effectively stunt mining in a noticable way. Maybe this is intended, maybe not. In wormholes, that will kill mining there in a big way. Is that intended?

In any case, I would be ok with this change if standard static belts were changed to anomolies that require scanning down as well. That way anyone that comes into a system will have to sort through several belts (or randomly checking one) to find someone. This still basically forces people to mine in macks (no more jetcanning) but it would at least provide a bit more protection to what seems to be right now a very one sided system coming. Either that or expect more gates to be bubbled up the wazzu all over the place. Is that intended?

Finally, someone did mention that exploration should be about finding riches, etc. Sure maybe a industry upgrade belt is so common now that it's not really special. But what about ark and bistot deposits? While I know that in highsec people complain about this but isn't that what exploration is supposed to be about? If I find an ark and bistot deposit in null and we are in a crappy mining system, it's something we stop what we are doing and go mine it out. At a minimum, can't we get that to be something we have to scan down?

All of these changes seem to be really a blanket change and I feel like it could be a lot more dynamic and interesting than it's turning out so far.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

coolzero
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#650 - 2013-05-10 23:14:11 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Still trying to figure out what is going to happen with industry upgrade ore sites. I couldn't find any systems with an industry upgrade to test out how that would work. I did however find a wh and the grav belt showed up as a combat anomaly, which I just warped to without probes.

I'm assuming that you go into a system and the system scanner will find the grav sites including industry upgrade belts. This isn't going to be really a great idea imo. Sure, more conflict, yadi yada...but combat pilots are not always present to defend a system. Furthermore, hotdroppers will have a field day with this. It'll effectively stunt mining in a noticable way. Maybe this is intended, maybe not. In wormholes, that will kill mining there in a big way. Is that intended?

In any case, I would be ok with this change if standard static belts were changed to anomolies that require scanning down as well. That way anyone that comes into a system will have to sort through several belts (or randomly checking one) to find someone. This still basically forces people to mine in macks (no more jetcanning) but it would at least provide a bit more protection to what seems to be right now a very one sided system coming. Either that or expect more gates to be bubbled up the wazzu all over the place. Is that intended?

Finally, someone did mention that exploration should be about finding riches, etc. Sure maybe a industry upgrade belt is so common now that it's not really special. But what about ark and bistot deposits? While I know that in highsec people complain about this but isn't that what exploration is supposed to be about? If I find an ark and bistot deposit in null and we are in a crappy mining system, it's something we stop what we are doing and go mine it out. At a minimum, can't we get that to be something we have to scan down?

All of these changes seem to be really a blanket change and I feel like it could be a lot more dynamic and interesting than it's turning out so far.


i wonder the same...i couldnt find any upgraded system in nullsec to see any grav spawn from upgraded system so dunno if they show up at all or they show up but needs to be scanned down or that they show up and warpable to directly (the last one i would really hate as you need sov to install upgrades in the system you need to stay for a while and mine the crap out of it to gain a level and gets you then nothing as reward and you could just mine the belts instead)
Alli Othman
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#651 - 2013-05-10 23:23:47 UTC
It's clear that CCP doesn't understand the use of the DSPs, but it's even clearer that they just don't give a damn and are going to ignore legitimate user feedback from those that know their system more intimately than they do.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#652 - 2013-05-10 23:24:55 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Quote:

The 8th probe

Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.

Thank you :)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

YuuKnow
The Scope
#653 - 2013-05-10 23:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
CCP Tallest wrote:

Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.


Maybe won't make it into the current expansion, but you could always give the players the ability to save their own formations. They deploy the probes and position them how they desire and then "Save As" so that they can easily launch their preferred formation at will.

On a side note: Anyone know if the scanning modules follow the typical stacking penalty formulas? Their description implies that they do, but I don't want to assume.

yk
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#654 - 2013-05-10 23:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
CCP Tallest wrote:


Quote:

Deep Space Probes??!?

The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.


While this may have been the intention at release, since then players have found many uses for them as detailed on many posts in this thread. Removing them removes this emergent behavior for no real gain.

What is gained by removing dsp's? Nothing.

What is lost by removing dsp's? Obviously something according to the responses in this thread. Myself, I've used dsp's in place of combat probes on a number of occasions. Other players have found even more creative uses for them (e.g. swiftandbitter).


So: why remove something, something that the community obviously uses, for no gain?
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#655 - 2013-05-10 23:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
CCP Tallest wrote:
Quote:

The 8th probe

Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.


Most people, well the flexibility of the current system has distinct advantages over the cookie cutter approach fit only for rookie storyline mission arcs.

Daily people run several systems, drop one probe see how many sites exist, they then find them, they bookmark results they find but will ignore and do the sites that interest them without making bookmarks and move on. Later the same day or the day after (or even day after), they will re enter the system, and warp to those ignored book marks and drop a probe if the site is there (or delete bookmark if not) so they can be eliminated from the new results. Then as all signatures are within 4AU of a planet a simple 8AU scan size hits every thing in that's planets sphere, this reduces the time taken to cover a system by removing areas of no interest. This will not be possible now unless you make launchers have a single probe launch function.

Also with level V skills, experience and decent equipment, the options you have as to probe deployment can vary greatly depending on where in the universe you are, just dropping 8 probes at once just screams i cant be arsed to play a game and think, i need a quick i win button/option.

already dead, just havenĀ“t fallen over yet....

MdZt
Defying Gravity
EM-B.A.S.H.
#656 - 2013-05-11 00:05:46 UTC
FAIL
> give my 8th probe back
> give my DSP back
> give my %% back. no color bars
> let me save personal scan formations
Jenn Rose
Doomheim
#657 - 2013-05-11 00:05:47 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:

Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.


CCP Tallest wrote:

We are changing it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).


Good, I have used only 4 probes for 5 years.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#658 - 2013-05-11 00:07:16 UTC
with dsp i also could find out at once which were the gas and grav site with the highest value to grind in c5/c6 wh.

this will also go down with bz removing dsp .
so dont !!!
MdZt
Defying Gravity
EM-B.A.S.H.
#659 - 2013-05-11 00:09:31 UTC
What about 'unscannable' ships.
Before the patch some specially fitted ships required the Virtue Set to be scanned. Looks like the Virtues are not needed anymore?
YuuKnow
The Scope
#660 - 2013-05-11 00:35:29 UTC
No offense to the devs, but I've always felt that Jack Miton's method was the best scanning method (8 probes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag

Allows both wide area scans and pinpoint scans simultaneously. I think I still prefer it as the scanning method of choice.

yk