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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1621 - 2011-11-02 14:00:21 UTC
Dirk Smacker wrote:
The steep standing hit may prevent large nul sec alliances from marauding through low sec, blowing up all the customs offices, and becoming absentee landlords.

That could be a good thing.



that steep standing hit means nothing for anyone that lives in 0.0. can raise it fast by using the sec'ing up loophole. or stay blinky in 0.0 it donst really matter either way.
but tbh i doubt any roaming gang shooting them will come back to finish them off. id expect them mostly ref'ing them to anoy people and making them come rep it. cos repping is awesom fun as already stated by ccp

OMG when can i get a pic here
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1622 - 2011-11-02 14:02:37 UTC
War Kitten wrote:

What is there to like about being in an NPC corp?

The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit?

The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over?

Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time?

Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool?



What difference does it make? They're happy that way paying and playing Eve. Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to what either of us think they should. It's their playstyle. I can't stand the thought of null space but enjoy the hell out of wormholes. Others are the opposite. Is either more right? No, to each their own.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1623 - 2011-11-02 15:15:41 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
War Kitten wrote:

What is there to like about being in an NPC corp?

The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit?

The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over?

Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time?

Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool?



What difference does it make? They're happy that way paying and playing Eve. Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to what either of us think they should. It's their playstyle. I can't stand the thought of null space but enjoy the hell out of wormholes. Others are the opposite. Is either more right? No, to each their own.


Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to ours, no. But for them to be catered to, they probably ought to be rational in the context of the argument you're making.

Why should CCP, creators of the dark and harsh world of Eve Online, care that people who are too risk-averse or lazy to even create their own corporation won't be able to own a customs office in lowsec or have easy access to lowsec PI?

Lowsec isn't easy mode or for those afraid of risks.

NPC corporations are easy mode, specifically for those too new or too afraid of risk.

Just because they have access now doesn't make it "right", nor is it a valid argument for continuing the access into the future.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1624 - 2011-11-02 15:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
War Kitten wrote:
Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to ours, no. But for them to be catered to, they probably ought to be rational in the context of the argument you're making.

Why should CCP, creators of the dark and harsh world of Eve Online, care that people who are too risk-averse or lazy to even create their own corporation won't be able to own a customs office in lowsec or have easy access to lowsec PI?

Lowsec isn't easy mode or for those afraid of risks.

NPC corporations are easy mode, specifically for those too new or too afraid of risk.

Just because they have access now doesn't make it "right", nor is it a valid argument for continuing the access into the future.


Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.

They will have no reason to take the risk anymore.

That's the point I'm intending to make... if you take away the customs offices permanently, these people won't have the incentive to take the risks of going into low for any reason. Leave the customs offices permanently in low sec, but have them go inactive if a PCO is present. Then these people will have the option available to fight for their PI rights in low sec. It's incentive to take more risks, not less. Maybe after having to form groups to take out offending PCOs a few times will inspire some like-minded folks to form a corp of their own, who knows. But if you simply cut them off cold and tell them to do their PI in high sec... well, they will. They'll be more disgruntled, hate the system more and become less likely to expand further into the game. It's human nature. You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1625 - 2011-11-02 15:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: War Kitten
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.


No, these are the ones who've figured out that there is NO risk in taking a cloaked transport through lowsec to do PI if you know what you're doing. They're not risking anything.

Ingvar Angst wrote:

You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home.


CCP isn't removing the sand, they're removing the free plastic castle that comes with every PI office and telling you to build your own out of the sand from now on.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
olsted
I Left W-Space For THIS LLC.
#1626 - 2011-11-02 16:21:30 UTC
So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).

Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?

Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.

(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"

Thanks,
-O.
Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
#1627 - 2011-11-02 16:37:54 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:

pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.

the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.


It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case.

Examples of sinks:

  • Station taxes
  • CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
  • Skillbooks

Examples of faucets:

  • CONCORD bounties for rats
  • Mission rewards
  • Incursion payouts


Examples of non-faucets:

  • Selling mission loot to another player
  • Buying/selling a PLEX
  • Selling PI goods on the market

Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1628 - 2011-11-02 16:42:26 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.


No, these are the ones who've figured out that there is NO risk in taking a cloaked transport through lowsec to do PI if you know what you're doing. They're not risking anything.
[quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Anything that is encouraging people to venture into low sec is a good thing in my opinion. Some folks need these baby steps to potentially take larger ones. Who are we to judge them or decry their playstyle simply because we chose differently?
War Kitten wrote:

[quote=Ingvar Angst]
You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home.


CCP isn't removing the sand, they're removing the free plastic castle that comes with every PI office and telling you to build your own out of the sand from now on.


There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?

This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1629 - 2011-11-02 16:58:38 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?

This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that a bunch of NPC corp guys will get together to reinforce a POCO (getting a sec loss in the process), then come back 2 days later, beat the owner corp's fleet in a fight, and destroy the POCO.

Right.

Compared to that, making an alt corp and anchoring their own POCO, while keeping their mains in NPC corp, takes next to no time or organization.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1630 - 2011-11-02 17:08:41 UTC
Lolmer wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:

pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.

the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.


It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case.

Examples of sinks:

  • Station taxes
  • CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
  • Skillbooks

Examples of faucets:

  • CONCORD bounties for rats
  • Mission rewards
  • Incursion payouts


Examples of non-faucets:

  • Selling mission loot to another player
  • Buying/selling a PLEX
  • Selling PI goods on the market

Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories.


while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently.
the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink.
so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet.

OMG when can i get a pic here
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1631 - 2011-11-02 17:10:26 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?


The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.

Ingvar Angst wrote:

This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it.


No, this, in fact, _requires_ to you build your own castle or pay taxes to the corporation who did. Why should Concord be subsidizing your sand castles for you?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
#1632 - 2011-11-02 17:16:00 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Lolmer wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:

pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.

the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.


It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case.

Examples of sinks:

  • Station taxes
  • CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
  • Skillbooks

Examples of faucets:

  • CONCORD bounties for rats
  • Mission rewards
  • Incursion payouts


Examples of non-faucets:

  • Selling mission loot to another player
  • Buying/selling a PLEX
  • Selling PI goods on the market

Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories.


while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently.
the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink.
so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet.


Sure thing, but the ISK is coming from other players not from a magical faucet. ;) What's wrong with taking more ISK from other players?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1633 - 2011-11-02 17:21:11 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?


The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.


We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1634 - 2011-11-02 17:25:57 UTC
Lolmer wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Lolmer wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:

pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.

the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.


It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case.

Examples of sinks:

  • Station taxes
  • CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
  • Skillbooks

Examples of faucets:

  • CONCORD bounties for rats
  • Mission rewards
  • Incursion payouts


Examples of non-faucets:

  • Selling mission loot to another player
  • Buying/selling a PLEX
  • Selling PI goods on the market

Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories.


while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently.
the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink.
so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet.


Sure thing, but the ISK is coming from other players not from a magical faucet. ;) What's wrong with taking more ISK from other players?


id rather it go back to npc orders. them rework pi compleatly so it is actually like what they showed us in all the fanfest vid and not the mindnumbing chore it currently is.
im lucky, for me its not actually about the isk. its about the fact pi is fuckingterribad in its current state and my anoyance with ccp's head in teh sand view of it. this addition only compounds there impotence to produce anything more than a crappy click fest as a mini game and dull structures that dont back to shoot.

OMG when can i get a pic here
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1635 - 2011-11-02 19:04:35 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?


The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.


We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.


You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.

I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.

Who has a more experienced opinion?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1636 - 2011-11-02 19:27:52 UTC
War Kitten wrote:

You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.

I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.

Who has a more experienced opinion?


I'm arguing from the standpoint of someone that did a little PI in low sec while stationed in high sec prior to moving into wormholes. At the time, that was pretty much my only reason to go into low sec, and as new as I was at the time, it was nerve wracking (in a fun way). So we're indeed looking at it from both sides of the same coin, with our "experienced opinions" filtered through differing perspectives.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#1637 - 2011-11-02 20:17:59 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?


The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.


We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.


You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.

I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.

Who has a more experienced opinion?


As a person that has lived in lowsec for over 5 years I totally disagree, with low sec today largely being filled with random griefers CO popping will become the new griefer hobby.

CCP's idea is TERRIBLE for low sec!

So as a long time committed low sec dweller (and someone that has repeatedly run for the CSM as a low sec focused candidate) I say CCP's changes are bad for low sec.

I have a more experienced opinion! P

Issler
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1638 - 2011-11-02 20:32:29 UTC
Which goes back to the reasoning of why POCOs need defenses, on the scale of POS towers. How often does a well-defended medium or large tower get put into reinforced in lo-sec?

(And also supports why the tariffs are going to have to be adjusted upwards quite a bit to pay either for POCO replacement or for the ISK needed to anchor additional defensive modules.)
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1639 - 2011-11-02 20:50:44 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
As a person that has lived in lowsec for over 5 years I totally disagree, with low sec today largely being filled with random griefers CO popping will become the new griefer hobby.

CCP's idea is TERRIBLE for low sec!


Well, in my experience as a "lowsec griefer", shooting structures is boring as hell. The only reasons we ever shot towers was to either get fights or loot (from labs, silos are worthless). Why would you waste your time shooting a structure that won't drop any loot? And you have to do it twice, one to reinforce, one to blow it up.

Plus, if it does become popular to shoot POCOs, you bet PVP corps will be putting them up to create fights. At 80-100 mil each, they are cheaper than a fitted ship. And they don't involve the fuelling nightmare of towers.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1640 - 2011-11-02 21:41:49 UTC
olsted wrote:
So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).

Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?

Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.

(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"

Thanks,
-O.


We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week?

Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway P

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones