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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1661 - 2011-11-03 15:34:50 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.

You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower.


So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to.


So by your reasoning, if CCP gave you 3 tools, a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, and you ONLY wanted to use the hammer for some reason, you'd insist that every feature cater to the hammerers?



No, but I'd ***** like hell if they decided to take away my nails.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Edart eno
Doomheim
#1662 - 2011-11-03 15:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Edart eno
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
...

We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.


You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.

I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.

Who has a more experienced opinion?


Yes, please explain to me why the following situation won't happen:

Edart eno wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


But this is where you are so horribly wrong, corps will not set a 9% tax! Please let me explain and bare with me.

I love the idea, I really do. However in practice it will never ever work the way you now intend it to. The reason for this is very simple; the "tax-amount " balance won't work in a game with players and mechanics like EVE. I know what you are thinking (atleast I like to believe I do), you are hoping that corps will lower their taxes because
1: if they lower their taxes, more people will use their planet and therefore more revenues again.
2: the higher their taxes the more chance PI'ers will get discontent and destroy the office.

However in reality this 'free-market' dynamism will never happen because:
1: - Planet installations are Immobile and specific to the planet. (and this one is a biggy!)
- Planets are only really survivable for perhaps 1 to 3,4 players.
- Planet resource layout, Installation setup, logistical problems, ... already make planets highly unsuitable for comparison, combine that with a dynamic tax and people will have no means to effectively compare planets --> no incentive for the corps to adjust their taxes --> Planet taxes will go from a free market equilibrum to a hostage/griefing mechanisme.

2: - the people who will be shooting down the Offices won't be other PI'ers, but will be griefers or mercs, just like we can see with POS'es in low sec. Effectively making PI just another Moon mining, SOV warfare, Corp, Alliance slugfest and to be honest we've already got plenty of those who already should be more than lucrative and exciting...


Or Limit this system to Non Empire (this system is perfect for NPC Null to stand out from Low or regular sec, and give WH holders some extra isk and means from invaders)
Or Limit the tax range amount from example 2% to 30% max
Or Combine these two and have Null do what it wants and Low only have taxes up to 15-20% max (can be a lot lower since it already is a fairly large amount for relatively an entirely passive income)


The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> so joining a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...



The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#1663 - 2011-11-03 15:51:51 UTC
Edart eno wrote:

The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> join a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...


Signed.

Few easy skills + ~500k initial investment + a hauler = small income for everyone

100M cost each + corp control + possible lockout = high level strategically planned activity

This seems like a very saddening contradiction to me. I think the right order of business would be to offer something for everyone, esp. new players first. Eve does not lack interesting/lucrative end-game opportunities it lacks short and mid term perspectives for new players. Plus corp leader types don't seems overly keen on dealing with more management tasks as it is.

I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1664 - 2011-11-03 15:52:01 UTC
Edart eno wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.


Please link to a dev blog or official blue response that says that, otherwise stop with that line of reasoning. PI was always intended to be a source of conflict (almost the entire reason for DUST, besides the 'cash in on console FPS' bandwagon). This concept just advances us one more step along the road towards making it a fight over resources, just like moon mining (which also require fixed assets).

And when it comes to conflict, lone wolves only survive by being crafty, sneaky, and staying away from the large packs and busy areas. Which, for PI, means using customs center launches or setting up shop in a very quiet system.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1665 - 2011-11-03 15:54:46 UTC
Edart eno wrote:
The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %).


CCP was wrong to put it as a percentage, implying it's related to actual value. As currently proposed, even 100% tax is only 4% of market value for P1 items, and 20% for P3.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1666 - 2011-11-03 15:55:04 UTC
Edart eno wrote:

The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> join a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...


What do anomalies have to do with being a corp affair?

And why shouldn't owning major structures and operating them as businesses NOT be a corporate affair? Isn't that what corporations are all about? Business entities that own assets?

Every single character in the game is a member of a corporation. It's a pretty imbedded concept in Eve if you haven't noticed. Being part of an NPC corporation just means you're a nobody in that corp, with no rights or special roles. But you're still part of a corporation.

Edart eno wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.


No, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. Here's a Google search for you that might help...

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=overcoming+fear+of+change

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1667 - 2011-11-03 15:57:01 UTC
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:
I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp.

You don't need the role to access it, just to anchor it (and I'm assuming anchoring, like upgrading, only takes "Config Equipment" role).

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#1668 - 2011-11-03 16:04:10 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:
I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp.

You don't need the role to access it, just to anchor it (and I'm assuming anchoring, like upgrading, only takes "Config Equipment" role).

Sure but setting tax level and minimum standings is restricted to station managers and that leaves the actual fun part of owning a POCO to the "big guys", who will most probably not even enjoy this, because they have enough other tasks on their mind.
Petar Harad
Justified and Ancient
#1669 - 2011-11-03 16:49:31 UTC
I have no idea if this is already mentioned in the previous posts, but in the Dev Blog it states 'Your personal storage in the Customs Office has been increased by 50% to 35000 m3'.

The current storage is 25000 m3. An increase with 50% should give a grand total of 37500 m3, not 35000 m3.
Or to put it in another way, as it stands now the increase is 40%, not 50%.

...without the signatures, the world has descended into chaos. No one knows how long we have left...CCP Falcon

bilingi
The Lancers Cartel
#1670 - 2011-11-03 17:10:15 UTC
Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,,

Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people. Shocked
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1671 - 2011-11-03 17:15:58 UTC
bilingi wrote:
Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,,

Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people. Shocked


So anyone who disagrees with you is automatically bad because you can't come up with a sensible counter to what we're saying? My main isn't even in a big corp. More a small-medium sized one. However, we make up for our lack of numbers with enthusiasm. :)
KC-CaLiAnLa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1672 - 2011-11-03 17:33:07 UTC
For the sake of the discussion, lets look at it from a different view:


There are always pro's and con's regarding a feature, for PI'ers the downsides have been made clear many times but perhaps the upsides for others outweigh these downsides, that I do not know of.

So:

Could somebody who is pro-POCO explain to me what these POCO's will bring to the tafel that Moon Mining doesn't already offer?
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#1673 - 2011-11-03 18:02:22 UTC
Yeah I'd like to hear that, too.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1674 - 2011-11-03 18:17:01 UTC
KC-CaLiAnLa wrote:
So:

Could somebody who is pro-POCO explain to me what these POCO's will bring to the tafel that Moon Mining doesn't already offer?


Ok.

Due to the defenses and logistics (fueling, hauling) involved, the rarity of good moons, and their income, moon mining cannot create small gang warfare. Moons are valuable enough, and well defended enough, that it becomes a big alliance game.

The POCOs need no fuel so they are easier on a small to mid-size corp with no dedicated logistics team. With their lower defenses, you can reinforce a POCO with 10 people in 15-30 minutes. It can be done so often that it's not worth it for a big alliance to respond from 3 titan jumps away.

This should create smaller, more local conflict. Unlike the absentee landlords of moons, POCOs will (should) belong to the people actually living in the area.

Also, since you are taxing people, and not extracting materials, you are dealing with dynamic resources. Unlike static moons, people can migrate from planet to planet over time, making some planets more valuables and others less.

Some of this may be wishful thinking, and a lot will depend on the final price of POCOs and their profitability, but there is only one way to find out.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1675 - 2011-11-03 18:33:07 UTC
Another thought on the "lack of POCO situation".

Right now, when we use the Command Center to do planet launches, we pay the tariff to the "big NPC in the sky" for the privilege and we pay 50% more then what it would cost to send that up to the Customs Office.

Naturally, if NPC services are going away, then we should not have to pay for launches from our command center. But this also causes big issues for the economics of a POCO, especially if the command center launch capacity is also increased to the point where not using the POCO at all becomes extremely viable.

One possibility would be to force the expenditure of some sort of fuel in exchange for not using the POCO. Liquid Ozone would be a good bet as that is already used as a cyno fuel. Simply make it so that every CC launch consumes N units of fuel out of your ship's cargo bay. A good number might be 1 unit of Liquid Ozone for every 100m3 (or fraction of 100m3) that you are launching with a minimum of 5 units used.

Liquid Ozone currently sells for about 325 ISK/u and is 0.40 m3/unit in size. So expending 5 units of LiqOz would run about 1625 ISK per 500 m3 launch, roughly equivalent to the 1500 ISK that you pay today for doing a max-capacity CC launch.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1676 - 2011-11-03 19:01:03 UTC
bilingi wrote:
Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,,

Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people. Shocked


ROFL

Oh, I'm hurt. Grievously wounded by your RMT accusation.

Your relevance to the discussion at hand is eclipsed by the ignorance of your remarks. Take a lesson from your buddy Ingvar's playbook...


Ingvar Angst wrote:
Now hush and let the adults chat.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1677 - 2011-11-03 19:21:42 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

One possibility would be to force the expenditure of some sort of fuel in exchange for not using the POCO. Liquid Ozone would be a good bet as that is already used as a cyno fuel. Simply make it so that every CC launch consumes N units of fuel out of your ship's cargo bay. A good number might be 1 unit of Liquid Ozone for every 100m3 (or fraction of 100m3) that you are launching with a minimum of 5 units used.


Interesting idea. But LO is already used for too many things (POS, cynos, JBs), while it's little brother, heavy water, is only used for POS. It would be better to use that instead, to balance supply and demand a bit.

Of course, RP-wise, it's hard to explain how sending something up from the planet consumes some in-space resource.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1678 - 2011-11-03 19:37:10 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:

Interesting idea. But LO is already used for too many things (POS, cynos, JBs), while it's little brother, heavy water, is only used for POS. It would be better to use that instead, to balance supply and demand a bit.

Of course, RP-wise, it's hard to explain how sending something up from the planet consumes some in-space resource.


Aye, heavy water would be good as well.

Lore-wise... you're creating a mini-cyno? If we could import small amounts of material down to the planet without using a customs office, then we wouldn't need to tap dance around the lore issues.

Maybe a "fuel cannister" that you load into a "fuel ejector" module that fits in a high-slot, which delivers fuel down to the Command Center. Get within 1M km of the planet, fire off the cannister and it then appears in your command center.

The issues with import has to do with the way the server code works... right now, you have (2) options for something in your cargo hold and no real way of getting stuff down to the planet:

- Eject (which creates a jetcan)
- Launch for corp (for things which are anchorable)

Another possibility would be a high-slot module where you target a jetcan full of material and use that high-slot module to consume fuel and send it down to your command center. You would have to load the high slot module with the fuel (just like ammo) and the jetcan would have to not have more then what would fit into the command center. Target the jetcan, click the module, stuff ends up in your command center.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1679 - 2011-11-03 20:43:25 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Edart eno wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.


Please link to a dev blog or official blue response that says that, otherwise stop with that line of reasoning. PI was always intended to be a source of conflict (almost the entire reason for DUST, besides the 'cash in on console FPS' bandwagon). This concept just advances us one more step along the road towards making it a fight over resources, just like moon mining (which also require fixed assets).

And when it comes to conflict, lone wolves only survive by being crafty, sneaky, and staying away from the large packs and busy areas. Which, for PI, means using customs center launches or setting up shop in a very quiet system.



Ahem.. you mean "Command Center launches" Idea


... I'm glad there are posters that are maintaining a rational perspective - for myself I'm waiting for the new Devblog on PCO before I try to post anymore 'academic' arguements.


*( I lol'ed when my 'Verticle' Post was removed - but I understand why... Omen is really nice... )

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#1680 - 2011-11-03 22:16:22 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
olsted wrote:
So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).

Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?

Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.

(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"

Thanks,
-O.


We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week?

Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway P


I see what you did there! Trying to distract us with shiny ships. Shame on you, CCP.

But, I hear you're making a new raven, and this makes me happy :D

Now hurry up with this new dev blog. I want to see proof that you do listen. ^^