These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#741 - 2013-04-05 18:39:56 UTC
Bellanea Rajanir wrote:
Quote:
Lets see, CQ was a forced feature that ran some people's computers into the ground and was completely divergent from space ship game play....read that as annoying as hell for quick docking/undocking especially if you're frame rate dropped from 50fps to 5fps.


They removed the hangars, but they have shown them i all the demos, that was unforgivable, because people should have the liberty to choose.

Essentially yes.

There was a very big push to reinforce the Avatar based game play as an intergal and natural part of the EvE universe experience. Having the option to turn that off very likely seemed counter productive to that goal. I can actually see the reasoning behind the decision not to pursue that functionality for the initial release.

EXCEPT for the fact that people fully expected that option. It had been discussed at length and assurances had been made (at that point in the development cycle). The people making that decision did not take this into account, and made a seriously bad call. It would likely have been a different story if those assurances had not been made, but since they had it made CCP look very, very bad indeed.

Sometimes the overall flow of what you are trying to achieve NEEDS to be tempered by the expectations of your customer base.

All that being said, the demand for the ability to spin ships for it's own sake alone is probably the lowest point the average perceived IQ of the EVE community has ever sunk to.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
LoJ4X
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#742 - 2013-04-05 23:14:32 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Clearly we need total darkness, a suit flashlight that stops working, an infrared camera and rogue drones that don't show up on an infrared camera

and magnetoboots, these are essential


I'd rather see those

*SPOILERS*

zombie caretaker things the architects left behind that attacked the first Amarrians to explore inside a Sleeper facility

*SPOILERS*

than any rogue drone.



Because zombies have not been done ff'in boredom yet, right ?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#743 - 2013-04-06 07:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Mr Kidd wrote:
(...)

Instead of reallocating resources to 1) advance the mainstay game play and 2) fix WiS, CCP just shelved WiS development. As it stands now it's a blemish on the game and a in game live testament to CCP's failure to both its execution and its resolution. The avatars still don't render properly. That's what I call quitting.

As to why CCP has abandoned both WiS and the NeX, IDK. It's easy to say that it was because of what the players wanted. I find that extremely hard to believe given the investment that CCP made even at those same players' expense. The only obvious reason is that WiS, technologically was a complete failure and they reached some technical impasse or it was just an alpha test for WoD with CCP having no intentions to completing it. Now, what happened behind the scenes, I've no idea. Do they have some licensing that expired? Is NeX the sole domain of another company? Did they develop the alpha version and then solely license the tech to another company preventing further development in game? No clue. But, I do see a lot of potential there that would not require any significant development to implement. And yet, CCP lets that resource and potential income stream be completely orphaned. Nah, there's too much that doesn't add up to be solely for the players' benefit that CCP changed directions entirely. There are a number of ways it could have been handled to both satiate the playerbase and develop a proper secondary income stream from the game.


My latest pet theory is that CCP fell behind the power curve with Incarna. They have X time and Y resources to develop XY+1 features and so development is lagging as features are either priorityzed or delayed.

The point is that not even by delaying and priorityzing they can deliver all the key features fast enough. FAI, nullsec is collapsing and as far as we know, CCP doesn't even haves a plan to reimagine it -a plan that was needed two years ago as the defunction of nullsec mechanics should not come as a surprise. Barring nullsec, what's left in the game that still works as endgame and keeps people interested? Hisec? Lowsec? WH?

Frankly, WiS (or the lack of) is the lesser of their troubles. That's too bad for us and it's a shame, but CCP can't do zill about it.

PS: edited for better comprehension, and will add: why it is so f*** difficult to release a few clothing assets that already are in the game, and roll back the wasteful decission of handing out clothing items to FW PvPrs instead of making them available to people more interested in obtaining them?
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#744 - 2013-04-06 16:44:15 UTC
I have removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
RazorDreamz
Chaotic Dynamics
#745 - 2013-04-06 21:25:42 UTC
I really hope this all comes into reality. Would love to see these features in the game.
Cam Mikaels
Infinicraft Industries
#746 - 2013-04-07 01:42:13 UTC
More walking? I really hope it's as optional as Incarna is right now.

I'm here for spaceships. Not the meatbags inside.

New Infinity dev blog: _http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=123&Itemid=49_

Man of many Mackerels.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#747 - 2013-04-07 04:59:10 UTC
Cam Mikaels wrote:
More walking? I really hope it's as optional as Incarna is right now.

I'm here for spaceships. Not the meatbags inside.


Most activities in EVE are optional. Part of its charm.
Ghazu
#748 - 2013-04-07 18:57:12 UTC
yeah i hope by now they know the difference optional and optional but f-you for opting out.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Flamespar
WarRavens
#749 - 2013-04-09 23:42:59 UTC
Was there any mention of Avatar stuff on the livestream? Or was it just 30 minutes of Devs saying Soon(TM)
Solhild
Doomheim
#750 - 2013-04-09 23:57:55 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Was there any mention of Avatar stuff on the livestream? Or was it just 30 minutes of Devs saying Soon(TM)


You've summed it up, all held back for fanfest. Actually disappointed I watched the whole hour.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#751 - 2013-04-10 03:10:08 UTC
Yeah it was pretty low on information.

Maybe we need for next weeks one which has Torfi on it, as he had a lot to do with the avatar exploration stuff I believe.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#752 - 2013-04-10 11:16:52 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
First of all I want to say that I love this idea, and if/when it comes out I'll probably play the hell out of it.

BUT, and this is the big but:

How does it fit into EVE as a game?

Without seeing the prototype, judging only by your post, I just can't see any connection between my exploration party derping around a space station looking for artifacts, and the grand political strategy of empires made up of thousands of players fighting each other for space dominance. It could just as well be a whole new game set in the EVE universe, only loosely if at all connected to the EVE game at all (not unlike Dust).

I don't see how the avatar gameplay could bring anything new to the player-player interaction EVE is based upon. In the form you describe it as, I don't expect it to become anything more than PI right now - just a gimmicky minigame to gather X resource. Only without the meta-game of fighting over planets. I don't see why I should prefer EVE-avatar-sim over activating a codebreaker module, and playing a proper full FPS/3PS game afterwards.


And just to show that I'm not simply whining for the sake of keeping the status quo, here is my idea I came up with in about 10 minutes:

Many people want there to be more significant content for smaller groups of people. So allow players to board/infiltrate an enemy Infrastructure hub, and hack the upgrades installed within. Or for larger squads even disable station services. The IHub's owners in the same system will be alerted can also enter and defend it. Otherwise it's defended by automated platforms (possibly allow these to be upgraded as an IHub upgrade too).

If the attacker succeeds, the hacked upgrade(s) will be disabled for a period of time, or until the attackers are driven out by the defenders. The longer the attacker can hold the hack, the longer the upgrades are disabled. This encourages both sides to reinforce the ongoing avatar battle with more spaceships bringing in troops, and to stop the enemy from doing the same. If the respawn mechanic of avatars somehow depends on who is holding the space grid over the IHub, the fight could quickly escalate to a battle both in space and in the corridors.

Once it works out and if people generally like it, it could also be implemented as an alternative way of reinforcing or taking over IHubs - instead of blowing it up and putting up your own, you could simply take it over with ground troops.



Seriously, everyone like this guys post. A group of crazy ass capsule pilots going ape **** in a station. Sounds like a blast.

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#753 - 2013-04-10 15:41:09 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
My latest pet theory is that CCP fell behind the power curve with Incarna. They have X time and Y resources to develop XY+1 features and so development is lagging as features are either priorityzed or delayed.

...

Frankly, WiS (or the lack of) is the lesser of their troubles. That's too bad for us and it's a shame, but CCP can't do zill about it.


I'm inclined to agree with that general assessment.

I mean, if you think about it, CCP is actually woefully slow to fix/add stuff, productivity is shoddy at best. Think about it for a second, in the last two years, what have they really ADDED? You could say they added FW (new system), new flagging, new crime watch, new bounty system, new ships and rebalance, etc. Seems like a lot. Except if you sit down and really think about it, how much actual new content was added? Pretty much none!

What I mean is, take FW. Yes, there were many changes to it. But what did those entail? Some rule changes, some number changes, buttons moved closer to beacons, etc? That's not a lot. Small indie companies do as much in a course of a single routine patch. Same for the new crime flagging, how much work was that really? Not that much. Ship rebalance? As in, tweaking some numbers in a database? Not particularly challenging and definitely doesn't require a lot of manpower. OK, the new ship models did need some work, but after 2 years since Incarna, it's really a pitifully small addition. Etc., etc.

Now, think back to older expansions, like Trinity, which completely overhauled EVERYTHING graphically. That was huge. Have we had anything of that scope since then? Not even close. The way I see it, EVE development seems to be stagnating alongside with the game itself. There's been nothing major that just shook up the game in a major way. Incarna-based gameplay had the potential, but with the speed that they've been implementing things in the last few years, and how long it too to fix those things until they became at least somewhat functioning (like the new inventory system), I really feel avatar-based gameplay is really a pipe dream at this point. They don't seem to have the ability to implement it, never mind other factors.

Personally, I pretty much gave up on the idea of ever seeing any meaningful avatar gameplay in EVE. They'll just keep adding these tweak-the-numbers-a-little "expansions" and keep going through the motions until something better comes along and finally sinks it. The last decade without any real competition seems to have really spoiled them.
Ghazu
#754 - 2013-04-10 19:01:44 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
My latest pet theory is that CCP fell behind the power curve with Incarna. They have X time and Y resources to develop XY+1 features and so development is lagging as features are either priorityzed or delayed.

...

Frankly, WiS (or the lack of) is the lesser of their troubles. That's too bad for us and it's a shame, but CCP can't do zill about it.


I'm inclined to agree with that general assessment.

I mean, if you think about it, CCP is actually woefully slow to fix/add stuff, productivity is shoddy at best. Think about it for a second, in the last two years, what have they really ADDED? You could say they added FW (new system), new flagging, new crime watch, new bounty system, new ships and rebalance, etc. Seems like a lot. Except if you sit down and really think about it, how much actual new content was added? Pretty much none!

What I mean is, take FW. Yes, there were many changes to it. But what did those entail? Some rule changes, some number changes, buttons moved closer to beacons, etc? That's not a lot. Small indie companies do as much in a course of a single routine patch. Same for the new crime flagging, how much work was that really? Not that much. Ship rebalance? As in, tweaking some numbers in a database? Not particularly challenging and definitely doesn't require a lot of manpower. OK, the new ship models did need some work, but after 2 years since Incarna, it's really a pitifully small addition. Etc., etc.

Now, think back to older expansions, like Trinity, which completely overhauled EVERYTHING graphically. That was huge. Have we had anything of that scope since then? Not even close. The way I see it, EVE development seems to be stagnating alongside with the game itself. There's been nothing major that just shook up the game in a major way. Incarna-based gameplay had the potential, but with the speed that they've been implementing things in the last few years, and how long it too to fix those things until they became at least somewhat functioning (like the new inventory system), I really feel avatar-based gameplay is really a pipe dream at this point. They don't seem to have the ability to implement it, never mind other factors.

Personally, I pretty much gave up on the idea of ever seeing any meaningful avatar gameplay in EVE. They'll just keep adding these tweak-the-numbers-a-little "expansions" and keep going through the motions until something better comes along and finally sinks it. The last decade without any real competition seems to have really spoiled them.

wow again with the eve's dying without avatars.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#755 - 2013-04-10 20:16:03 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
My latest pet theory is that CCP fell behind the power curve with Incarna. They have X time and Y resources to develop XY+1 features and so development is lagging as features are either priorityzed or delayed.

...

Frankly, WiS (or the lack of) is the lesser of their troubles. That's too bad for us and it's a shame, but CCP can't do zill about it.


I'm inclined to agree with that general assessment.

I mean, if you think about it, CCP is actually woefully slow to fix/add stuff, productivity is shoddy at best. Think about it for a second, in the last two years, what have they really ADDED? You could say they added FW (new system), new flagging, new crime watch, new bounty system, new ships and rebalance, etc. Seems like a lot. Except if you sit down and really think about it, how much actual new content was added? Pretty much none!

What I mean is, take FW. Yes, there were many changes to it. But what did those entail? Some rule changes, some number changes, buttons moved closer to beacons, etc? That's not a lot. Small indie companies do as much in a course of a single routine patch. Same for the new crime flagging, how much work was that really? Not that much. Ship rebalance? As in, tweaking some numbers in a database? Not particularly challenging and definitely doesn't require a lot of manpower. OK, the new ship models did need some work, but after 2 years since Incarna, it's really a pitifully small addition. Etc., etc.

Now, think back to older expansions, like Trinity, which completely overhauled EVERYTHING graphically. That was huge. Have we had anything of that scope since then? Not even close. The way I see it, EVE development seems to be stagnating alongside with the game itself. There's been nothing major that just shook up the game in a major way. Incarna-based gameplay had the potential, but with the speed that they've been implementing things in the last few years, and how long it too to fix those things until they became at least somewhat functioning (like the new inventory system), I really feel avatar-based gameplay is really a pipe dream at this point. They don't seem to have the ability to implement it, never mind other factors.

Personally, I pretty much gave up on the idea of ever seeing any meaningful avatar gameplay in EVE. They'll just keep adding these tweak-the-numbers-a-little "expansions" and keep going through the motions until something better comes along and finally sinks it. The last decade without any real competition seems to have really spoiled them.


That's my pet theory #2: EVE FiS content has become so complex and interwined that adding new content is almost impossible and merely tweaking what already exists requires lots of checking and balancing. I don't buy that CCP employees are lazy or unprofessional. if they take 2 bloody years to just change a few stats on a few databases, ti's because the task is really that complex as those stats affect the whole game, and it's a beast of a game.

EVE no longer is a place where you can just throw in supercapitals "because they're cool" (nullsec still is dieing from that move). Today, CCP Backfire is the king of the hill as most changes are more likely to drive players away by removing something that kept them subbed, than to retain others because they like better what CCP delivers. Finding a suitable spot takes 2 years to just change some bloody stats.

WiS could had provided a way to add content to the game without interfering with the FiS mayhem, but alas, CCP ran into trouble before that and now they're just chasing a train that is already gone.

They're behind the power curve, and their only hope is that something dramatic happens to their power (unlikely), that their customers give them all the time they need (very unlikely), or that the growing mountain range of burned out players suddenly starts shrinking (unlikely too). Or, they may just change their course (anathema!).

Is EVE dieing? Not yet. But the game is progressing towards zero power, zero velocity and zero altitude.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#756 - 2013-04-10 20:38:52 UTC
Im not quite sure what it means, but as far as I can tell the last time any dev mentioned anything Avatar related was in mid October 2012, 6 months ago. The streamed Q&A session had nothing, even though I know several posters asked about it. I do not remember seeing any dev post about it in the last 6 months.

So why the lack of communication?

Maybe CCP has totally given up. But if so, why not just say so?
Maybe something is being planned, and they want to spring it on us? Say, at Fanfest?

It is likely the controversial nature of avatar game play is so great its a dis-intensive to CCP to talk about it. But I hope CCP is still thinking along these lines:

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the positive reaction. Like stated above, our vision is to make the EVE Universe the ultimate science fiction simulator. Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people.
....snip....

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#757 - 2013-04-10 22:27:33 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Im not quite sure what it means, but as far as I can tell the last time any dev mentioned anything Avatar related was in mid October 2012, 6 months ago. The streamed Q&A session had nothing, even though I know several posters asked about it. I do not remember seeing any dev post about it in the last 6 months.

So why the lack of communication?

Maybe CCP has totally given up. But if so, why not just say so?
Maybe something is being planned, and they want to spring it on us? Say, at Fanfest?

It is likely the controversial nature of avatar game play is so great its a dis-intensive to CCP to talk about it. But I hope CCP is still thinking along these lines:

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the positive reaction. Like stated above, our vision is to make the EVE Universe the ultimate science fiction simulator. Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people.
....snip....



Second post:

CCP Unifex wrote:
So, all that being said, we have a great concept to expand the EVE Universe but now is not the right time for us to take that step. It’s a step I very much want to take but I want to take it when it won’t mean removing developers and focus from flying in space. So, for the time being, watch this space with regards to exploration gameplay for EVE avatars. The Avatar team will now be turning its attention to features it can put out for EVE in our winter expansion and beyond.


They think that the exploration FPS is what playes wanted (no, it's not) and they can't develop it now. Unifex also hinted that maybe avatars could be a separate game set in the EVE universe à-la-DUST 514 (CSM december minutes).

All in all, there's no avatars in the works and the most "new" and "exciting" thing is "whatever they can patch together by june", aka Odyssey, the first of the new "themed multi-threaded" expansions.

Mix in something about the Jove and mittens trying to steal the show with a resignation or something equally dramatic, and that will be Fanfest 2013 for posterity. Blink
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#758 - 2013-04-10 22:33:37 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Im not quite sure what it means, but as far as I can tell the last time any dev mentioned anything Avatar related was in mid October 2012, 6 months ago. The streamed Q&A session had nothing, even though I know several posters asked about it. I do not remember seeing any dev post about it in the last 6 months.

So why the lack of communication?

Maybe CCP has totally given up. But if so, why not just say so?
Maybe something is being planned, and they want to spring it on us? Say, at Fanfest?

It is likely the controversial nature of avatar game play is so great its a dis-intensive to CCP to talk about it. But I hope CCP is still thinking along these lines:

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the positive reaction. Like stated above, our vision is to make the EVE Universe the ultimate science fiction simulator. Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people.
....snip....


Second post:
CCP Unifex wrote:
So, all that being said, we have a great concept to expand the EVE Universe but now is not the right time for us to take that step. It’s a step I very much want to take but I want to take it when it won’t mean removing developers and focus from flying in space. So, for the time being, watch this space with regards to exploration gameplay for EVE avatars. The Avatar team will now be turning its attention to features it can put out for EVE in our winter expansion and beyond.


They think that the exploration FPS is what playes wanted (no, it's not) and they can't develop it now. Unifex also hinted that maybe avatars could be a separate game set in the EVE universe à-la-DUST 514 (CSM december minutes).

All in all, there's no avatars in the works and the most "new" and "exciting" thing is "whatever they can patch together by june", aka Odyssey, the first of the new "themed multi-threaded" expansions.

Mix in something about the Jove and mittens trying to steal the show with a resignation or something equally dramatic, and that will be Fanfest 2013 for posterity. Blink



So, does this mean your going to quit for real this time?

Also:

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


They think that the exploration FPS is what playes wanted (no, it's not) and they can't develop it now.


[citation needed]

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#759 - 2013-04-10 22:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Ghazu wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
My latest pet theory is that CCP fell behind the power curve with Incarna. They have X time and Y resources to develop XY+1 features and so development is lagging as features are either priorityzed or delayed.

...

Frankly, WiS (or the lack of) is the lesser of their troubles. That's too bad for us and it's a shame, but CCP can't do zill about it.


I'm inclined to agree with that general assessment.

I mean, if you think about it, CCP is actually woefully slow to fix/add stuff, productivity is shoddy at best. Think about it for a second, in the last two years, what have they really ADDED? You could say they added FW (new system), new flagging, new crime watch, new bounty system, new ships and rebalance, etc. Seems like a lot. Except if you sit down and really think about it, how much actual new content was added? Pretty much none!

What I mean is, take FW. Yes, there were many changes to it. But what did those entail? Some rule changes, some number changes, buttons moved closer to beacons, etc? That's not a lot. Small indie companies do as much in a course of a single routine patch. Same for the new crime flagging, how much work was that really? Not that much. Ship rebalance? As in, tweaking some numbers in a database? Not particularly challenging and definitely doesn't require a lot of manpower. OK, the new ship models did need some work, but after 2 years since Incarna, it's really a pitifully small addition. Etc., etc.

Now, think back to older expansions, like Trinity, which completely overhauled EVERYTHING graphically. That was huge. Have we had anything of that scope since then? Not even close. The way I see it, EVE development seems to be stagnating alongside with the game itself. There's been nothing major that just shook up the game in a major way. Incarna-based gameplay had the potential, but with the speed that they've been implementing things in the last few years, and how long it too to fix those things until they became at least somewhat functioning (like the new inventory system), I really feel avatar-based gameplay is really a pipe dream at this point. They don't seem to have the ability to implement it, never mind other factors.

Personally, I pretty much gave up on the idea of ever seeing any meaningful avatar gameplay in EVE. They'll just keep adding these tweak-the-numbers-a-little "expansions" and keep going through the motions until something better comes along and finally sinks it. The last decade without any real competition seems to have really spoiled them.

wow again with the eve's dying without avatars.


No, he's not saying that at all. But he is pointing out that, Incarna aside, no new content has been added to the game in years. Take ship rebalancing....what's new? Nothing. What's changed? A lot. I'm of the opinion that they're basically taking poor game play that players have made to work, are changing it (for better or worse?) and palming that off as "content" expecting us to have "fun" doing the same thing. It's not. The only reason Incarna is used as an example is it was new content but CCP royally fubared it.

With the ship rebalancing thats being presented as an "expansion" (think about that word), they're basically proliferating cap usage which I think everyone agrees is bad for small scale game play. As for content itself, what is there that's new.....nothing.

If you look at the overall picture very little is being done to the game. Oh sure, they're making lots of small changes that effect a large scope of the game but on the whole, these changes can probably be done in a couple of days work for a few developers changing numbers in a database. But even some of the ship changes don't even make sense so, how much effort are they really putting into Eve?

Don't ban me, bro!
Ivoto
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#760 - 2013-04-10 23:38:06 UTC
Am I the only one who:

A) Is kinda underwhelmed by this?

and

B) Thinks this sounds a lot like Eve Tomb Raider?

Ugh