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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#1121 - 2013-08-02 14:31:34 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
(...)

So the fact that they don't iterrate on it could have two reasons:
The outspoken gentlemen here that think they are "winning a fight for FiS"
OR
The fact that CCP doesn't really want to/can put that much money anymore into EVE, looking at future projects that promise more revenue.(...)


Pass on the tinfoil hat, but i'm thinking something like that.

I think that CCP has come to realize that, for several reasons, EVE as a product has reached maturity and from there it can only start aging, and so they've made their plans accordingly.

Can EVE die? Let me use a simile: Can Coca-Cola die? Not exactly. But certainly Classic Coke is not the only thing C-C sells. Classic Coke has not been abandoned, but it no longer gets the weight of investment -how many Classic ads have you seen, compared to Zero's? C-C Co. has moved to greener pastures, without abandoning their flagship states, but also Classic Coke no longer is the cool kid in the block.

So in a way, FiS crowd has won the fight for EVE. EVE will never be anything else than it is, hoorray. But it certainly is called to become less in the eyes of CCP.


*takes back the tinfoil hat*
Perhaps EVE is only kept alive by bribes from other game companies fearing our community could switch to their products. Pirate

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x

Deborah Bat-Zeev
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1122 - 2013-08-04 11:14:07 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:

In any case, when the CSM election happened there was not a single CSM candidate - at least as far as I remember - who was for anything WiS. So it comes at no great surprise that they did not pick anything WiS.


Actually, Malcanis stated on his candidate platform that he wants CCP to at least talk again about their future plans for WiS. The other people in current CSM are either indifferent about or explicitly against WiS, though.

Aidan Brooder wrote:

But to add one point: the time of "Bug fixes" must be over!
When I picked from the list of 99 items that were chosen by the CSM, I found it hard to find anything except for "improved Drone Controls" that really made me say: "Whew, yeah we need this!"


Point is, Eve won't get any large expansions. Period. Eve only serves as a cash cow now to fund CCP's other projects and you can't expect much more than the handful of fixes, stats changes, (mostly terrible) ship paint jobs and UI tweaks that we've seen in the last years. Calling for anything beyond miniscule changes would be about as realistic as demanding democracy in North Korea.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#1123 - 2013-08-04 12:40:44 UTC
Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:

In any case, when the CSM election happened there was not a single CSM candidate - at least as far as I remember - who was for anything WiS. So it comes at no great surprise that they did not pick anything WiS.


Actually, Malcanis stated on his candidate platform that he wants CCP to at least talk again about their future plans for WiS. The other people in current CSM are either indifferent about or explicitly against WiS, though.

Aidan Brooder wrote:

But to add one point: the time of "Bug fixes" must be over!
When I picked from the list of 99 items that were chosen by the CSM, I found it hard to find anything except for "improved Drone Controls" that really made me say: "Whew, yeah we need this!"


Point is, Eve won't get any large expansions. Period. Eve only serves as a cash cow now to fund CCP's other projects and you can't expect much more than the handful of fixes, stats changes, (mostly terrible) ship paint jobs and UI tweaks that we've seen in the last years. Calling for anything beyond miniscule changes would be about as realistic as demanding democracy in North Korea.


Sadly I agree with your estimate...

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1124 - 2013-08-04 13:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:

In any case, when the CSM election happened there was not a single CSM candidate - at least as far as I remember - who was for anything WiS. So it comes at no great surprise that they did not pick anything WiS.


Actually, Malcanis stated on his candidate platform that he wants CCP to at least talk again about their future plans for WiS. The other people in current CSM are either indifferent about or explicitly against WiS, though.

Aidan Brooder wrote:

But to add one point: the time of "Bug fixes" must be over!
When I picked from the list of 99 items that were chosen by the CSM, I found it hard to find anything except for "improved Drone Controls" that really made me say: "Whew, yeah we need this!"


Point is, Eve won't get any large expansions. Period. Eve only serves as a cash cow now to fund CCP's other projects and you can't expect much more than the handful of fixes, stats changes, (mostly terrible) ship paint jobs and UI tweaks that we've seen in the last years. Calling for anything beyond miniscule changes would be about as realistic as demanding democracy in North Korea.


Well, albeit the situation is right, we also must consider the (potential) causes; and right now, it turns that neither EVE nor DUST have Executive Producers at the helm. DUST just has had its EP fired/resigned and EVE has no EP since CCP Unifex moved to be head of mobile strategy (and away from godawful Iceland). The prospects of finding one are not bright -when the CEO asks the customers for suggestions of who could be an EP, that's not reassuring. And actually, not having a in-house EP for a game like EVE is... how could i say... lacking. CCP Unifex was an out-house EP and did a good job, admittedly, but his job was of damage control and he didn't laid any foundations for future development.

In a very literal way, EVE is not going anywhere because there is noone at the wheel, and even when they find a EP, they have a very high chance to break the game because of the explosive mix of EVE complexity and EP's cognitive bias. The new EP will be faced to a extremely complex situation and either he will have previous knowledge of it (and it will be biased and not objective enough) or he won't have such knowledge and will filter EVE's complexity through his experience and knowledge based on things/games that are not EVE. Then it may get very ugly as pet ideas are born and implemented.

The temptation for CCP to just leave EVE as is and move on to greener pastures must be very strong, specialy as CCP's lead team no longer are passionate 20-somes. Maybe they will choose to hire a conservative EP who may be tasked with keeping the game up, and then we will know for sure that the fate of EVE is sealed to the eyes of CCP.

Interesting times are coming, but not in the positive meaning of the word...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#1125 - 2013-08-05 11:36:33 UTC
Which do you think CCP should implement first? Modular POS with interiors, or the exploration stuff?

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1126 - 2013-08-05 12:58:24 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Which do you think CCP should implement first? Modular POS with interiors, or the exploration stuff?




It would be wise to start small and simple aka standalone multiplayer chat environments.

it would be so CCP to start with the massive Jesus feature aka dungeon raiding FPS, and then get everything wrong.

But that's just meaningless at this point. Waiting is Stupid is never going to be implemented.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1127 - 2013-08-05 15:09:12 UTC
Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:

In any case, when the CSM election happened there was not a single CSM candidate - at least as far as I remember - who was for anything WiS. So it comes at no great surprise that they did not pick anything WiS.


Actually, Malcanis stated on his candidate platform that he wants CCP to at least talk again about their future plans for WiS. The other people in current CSM are either indifferent about or explicitly against WiS, though.


I have already given my advice to CCP as a CSM that they should make a "State of the nation" communication on the WiS project.

That part of my campaign pledge has been fulfilled as far as I am able to do so at this time. I haven't forgotten the issue or changed my mind on it, but at this point the ball is in CCP's court.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1128 - 2013-08-05 15:10:41 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


In a very literal way, EVE is not going anywhere because there is noone at the wheel


In a very literal way, this is absolutely untrue.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1129 - 2013-08-05 15:31:13 UTC
I guess i have only imagined that Hilmar said they have a plan for the next years...
And CCP Seagull got her job just for sitting around...
The upcoming, purely player driven live events they've mentioned yesterday also
were just imagined, i guess.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1130 - 2013-08-05 15:32:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


In a very literal way, EVE is not going anywhere because there is noone at the wheel


In a very literal way, this is absolutely untrue.
In a very literal way, many people can not see beyond their own mental limitations.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#1131 - 2013-08-05 16:58:12 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
I guess I have only imagined that Hilmar said they have a plan for the next years...


It's all well and good being told that there is a plan, but we've seen very little of it. We get the occasional twitter comment from someone important like Hilmar saying "Wow, people really want WiS!", but that doesn't change the fact that we hear nothing solid of this plan and they expect us to trust them.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1132 - 2013-08-05 18:30:07 UTC
During this year's Alliance Tournament, CCP played it smart and learned from their past mistakes - they did not hype anything at all (or I utterly missed it). No discussions about what their future ideas, plans, or visions are to be for either Dust or Eve. So could this be construed that CCP is going to let the games idle on their own merits? Or would they rather avoid the backlash of threads like this by not having to justify anything based upon some past hyped dream?

Based upon their past track record, I feel they want to keep quiet.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#1133 - 2013-08-05 18:36:50 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
During this year's Alliance Tournament, CCP played it smart and learned from their past mistakes - they did not hype anything at all (or I utterly missed it). No discussions about what their future ideas, plans, or visions are to be for either Dust or Eve. So could this be construed that CCP is going to let the games idle on their own merits? Or would they rather avoid the backlash of threads like this by not having to justify anything based upon some past hyped dream?

Based upon their past track record, I feel they want to keep quiet.


To be honest, it's a fairly smart approach. But the damage has already been done and the silence is just compounding it. It would have been a perfect strategy if they had started like that. The backlash in this thread isn't just about it's OP, it's about CCP saying they would achieve walking in stations content and saying it over and over since late 2006. Even now they will keep saying "We will eventually do it".

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Marcus Harikari
#1134 - 2013-08-05 19:32:13 UTC
CCP should just release WiS without any sort of foreshadowing or warning. Let the players shoot the monuments for a week or so, nothing will change, but new people will come into the game if the avatars look anything near as good as they look now for a chance to interact in a more social, yet still sci-fi and linked-to-eve setting.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1135 - 2013-08-05 21:02:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


In a very literal way, EVE is not going anywhere because there is noone at the wheel


In a very literal way, this is absolutely untrue.


So there is actually a Plan but, let me guess: it's NDA'ed!

So I must trust you that CCP has got Big err... Some err... Any Plans but they just forgot to tell us and are misleading us with astonishing restats, exhilarating new scatter gameplay and awesome UI changes, all carefully devised as a well-conceived plan two years old which was created by the mastermind EP of EVE -CCP Backlash himself.

I am judging actions, not words. For an instance, you CSM haven't picked for voting a single avatar based proposal. That's a fact. I don't care how has happened, but that's exactly what you have done for me so now I should trust your fact-depleted words.

And that's not going to happen.

Do you know how do I know that there is no future development plan? Because right now we are at the final stage of the post-Incarna development plan. We are seeign the fruits of it as Winter 2013 comes closer.

And yet POSes have been micro-patched and postponed. Sov is not even in the talks. WiS is abandoned except for money-grabbing ploys using existing content. Expansion plans essentially mean offering 36% rebates to cancelled accounts. And Odyssey was patched together in a hurry by february 2013 after the CSM was horrified at CCP's actual plans for the summer expansion.

Hang me if EVE looks now like CCP has spent wisely the 180~ish million dollars they've earned since summer of rage. Because if the current situation is the result of a plan, then we're seriously doomed.

This game is not going somewhere, and things that don't go somewhere end not going anywhere. Tell that to the Executive Producer for EVE Online on my behalf when you meet later this month, will you?

Oh wait: you won't meet the EP because there's none at the wheel.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1136 - 2013-08-05 21:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
hand wringing and teeth-gnashing


Your stuffs, can I haz them since you are likely "quitting" again soon.

edit: never mind, all you probably have is a bunch of useless crap from the Nex.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1137 - 2013-08-05 22:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Doc Fury wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
hand wringing and teeth-gnashing


Your stuffs, can I haz them since you are likely "quitting" again soon.

edit: never mind, all you probably have is a bunch of useless crap from the Nex.


I quit when I had to quit. Dunno what will happen when this account expires, but it's going to happen well after the winter expansion so by then I'll be a fool or i'll be right.

Not that matters much, though.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Naira Shandr
Doomheim
#1138 - 2013-08-05 23:22:38 UTC
Boggles my mind how petulant and unnecessarily pessimistic some people get, when CCP has demonstrated a love of r their universe. Especially now that they seem to have kicked up their communication with the player base. But theres no need to get sucked into this endless argument so I'll just plop down my thoughts. I hope that you continue working on WiS at whatever pace you choose CCP, because a good chunk of the players who enjoy the setting and interactions with other characters would really appreciate the ability to do so in a "physical space". (I think. I know I would.) In my very much unprofessional opinion, I think the next small step would be to introduce some kind of basic corporate office, where we can at least walk up and bump into our corp mates. Seems to me to be the best way of testing the waters again without having to add too much.
None ofthe Above
#1139 - 2013-08-05 23:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
I am surprised this thread isn't locked. Team Avatar is disbanded and the prototype discarded. I don't see what can be said here that isn't off topic.

As close to topic as I can be:

It's unreasonable to expect any significant changes in the char creator or avatars before or as part of the winter release.

I expect a couple more items and perhaps a few tweaks, largely related to the collector's edition.

It makes little sense to have CCP developers spend much effort on Avatar work in EVE until the Carbon team in WoD has some really stable stuff to try to port back. They don't seem to be gearing up for a marketing push for this christmas, so likely will be a year yet at least before we see something there.

This kind of project is huge, I was dismayed when CCP decided to roll-their-own. I still think Unreal would have been a better choice. The development of WoD is no doubt delayed due to this. That said, they do have the chance to push the boundaries and come up with something truly different. Best of luck to them.

Also sad that the revisionist history around Incarna has made it all about anti-WIS, cause that's not how I remember it.

I hope when WoD produces something worthwhile, we in EVE do get something out of it. There is some danger that the anti-spacebarbie crowd and the effort it would take to merge the forked Carbon code could make it more effort than it's worth.

I am actually more interested in the stories that can be told machinima-style than WiS, but that's just me. (Unless I can I can step through the door in Jita to track down and strangle some of the scammers & spammers, then I'm in.)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1140 - 2013-08-06 06:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Naira Shandr wrote:
Boggles my mind how petulant and unnecessarily pessimistic some people get, when CCP has demonstrated a love of r their universe. Especially now that they seem to have kicked up their communication with the player base. But theres no need to get sucked into this endless argument so I'll just plop down my thoughts. I hope that you continue working on WiS at whatever pace you choose CCP, because a good chunk of the players who enjoy the setting and interactions with other characters would really appreciate the ability to do so in a "physical space". (I think. I know I would.) In my very much unprofessional opinion, I think the next small step would be to introduce some kind of basic corporate office, where we can at least walk up and bump into our corp mates. Seems to me to be the best way of testing the waters again without having to add too much.


Well, banging your head on a wall for 16 months can have some consequences.

Back when CCP (apparently) didn't know what to do with the post-Incarna mess, I did everything in my hands to convince them to take little steps and implement WiS metaphorically one room at a time (yes, that's the same you've said).

CCP instead started work on a gameplay prototype involving a massive investment of time and resources, right as they said that "Jesus features" were gone. Later, they detached WoD carbon development from EVE, which means that whatever is made for WoD won't be usable in EVE WiS without a lengthy and costly portation(?) effort.

That is, what they have made has been, chronologically (non comprehensive list):

- state that massive features are no longer in their plans
- ignore the petitions to implement WiS step by step rather than as a massive feature
- transform "interactable" WiS into a "combat only" WiS
- ignore the petitions to implement WiS step by step (again)
- turn "interactable" WiS into a possible aftermath of the massive combat-only feature
- estimate the resources needed to implement the massive combat-only feature and discard its implementation for the curent production cycle (i.e. delay it at least until 2015)
- stop developing avatar content
- stop implementing existing avatar content
- stop developing avatar technology in a way that allows to use it in EVE

These are facts.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you