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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-04-09 15:29:21 UTC
Lina Theist wrote:
I feel the resist bonus is out of place on the rokh. If you want a sniper go with a naga, if you want a heavier sniper then change the resist bonus to damage to match the naga. Half a brawler, half a sniper doesn't make a viable ship.

Its designed to kite at close range with Blasters, the only reason Rails were used was when they were good 3+ years ago til they got nerf bat

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#162 - 2013-04-09 15:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
Lina Thiest, that resist bonus is one of the best individial bonuses in the game, which is why you are seeing so many tears over it. Also, that range bonus is essentail to blaster doctrine, and is effectively a damage bonus at longer ranges. As for being a viable ship, the rokh is the backbone of many large fleets, its one of the best balanced battleships around as it is. Please see my previous post on what should be done with it change wise

The resist bonus is not "out of place". A shield resist bonus is one of the Caldari's most common bonuses and closely identified traits. Nothing screams Caldari like a shield resist bonus, and it's the primary reason the Caldari Navy is my favorite faction. Thats why this change really makes me worry, because if they do it to the Rokh, they are probably going to do it to all the other ships that have that bonus.

Also, reducing the resist bonus will bring down ehp far more than 8k, a rokh with a good fitting can hit 120k ehp without much trouble, and the reduction will slice off about 12% of that, effectively.

Vote no on resists change. (There's not really a vote, but protest anyway.)

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Cloudcobra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-04-09 15:33:53 UTC
I already felt old using my trusty Raven with 6 CM IIs + 2 425mm Prototypes for missions. Now it feels like the Raven gets extinct unless CCP pulls a large missile buff.
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
EDGE Alliance
#164 - 2013-04-09 15:40:01 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:
I feel the resist bonus is out of place on the rokh. If you want a sniper go with a naga, if you want a heavier sniper then change the resist bonus to damage to match the naga. Half a brawler, half a sniper doesn't make a viable ship.


Range isn't only good for sniping.


Just because blasters are so damn good. Give it a 25% damage bonus and I'd actually fit rails to it, like a multipurpose abaddon.
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#165 - 2013-04-09 15:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
25% damage bonus is the Naga's territory, if you like it so much fly that. The Rokh has always been a tank boat, and making it into an overpowered Naga won't make the Caldari Navy better. Also, blasters have significant drawbacks, they are good, but you pay for it in several ways. Not the least of which is their abysmal range, the worst in the game.

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
EDGE Alliance
#166 - 2013-04-09 15:53:37 UTC
Van Mathias wrote:
25% damage bonus is the Naga's territory, if you like it so much fly that. The Rokh has always been a tank boat, and making it into an overpowered Naga won't make the Caldari Navy better. Also, blasters have significant drawbacks, they are good, but you pay for it in several ways. Not the least of which is their abysmal range, the worst in the game.


holy ****, way to miss my point entirely. As it stands right now, a rokh will never snipe because it's outperformed in every way by a naga. As such, blasters are the only viable option for a rokh. However, if it got a damage bonus instead, rails would actually do enough damage to be viable. Blasters would lose range, and be niche.

Right now, rokh is fitted with blasters only as a brawler.
If it got a damage bonus, it would be viable to fit with two different weapon types. At least I would consider both.
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#167 - 2013-04-09 16:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
Um, what? Why in the heck would I want 2 railboats instead of 1 railboat and 1 blastership? Also, the Rokh relies on its range to nullify the damage bonuses of other ships. As Garviel said, its for near range kiting.

The entire point of ship roles is that a each ship is supposed to do 1 thing well, within a reasonable range of variation. So having a Rokh that uses both rails and blasters equally well goes against that. I would recommend you play a bit more and understand better how large ship doctrine works before making suggestions that go directly against the stated direction of development by CCP.

Ship hulls are not meant to be empty canvases that you paint your desired features onto, except for strategic cruisers.

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#168 - 2013-04-09 16:09:55 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
The nerfs to the Raven EHP are way to much. It was already thin before with 2 LSE II and 2 Invuls. 1 extra mid slot will not make that much difference. And most of us would like to fit a TP/web/MJD etc in that newly opened slots. Instead it will go to another LSE or an EM field II to patch up this miserable tank.

And don't let the "Why does the phoon get the damage amp bonus?" get you down. That velocity bonus is gold when it comes to actually using torps. Also, I look forward to you fixing Torps/CMs. It's been a long, long time coming.


It's ten extra kilometers, IIRC. It's not that good. At all. This Raven is an utter ******* joke of a battleship that has no place in the lineups of any faction save the countless NPCs you're shooting (because honestly it'll probably go down that fast in a fight, while putting up just as much of a fight as a lone NPC battleship itself).

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Ok so everyone here thinks the Raven is now still crap, here is a hint:

N A N O R A V E N


You mean the Typhoon, right? Nano typhoon will slap the **** out of a nano Raven, I am positive.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-04-09 16:15:12 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Aliventi wrote:


[quote=Grunnax Aurelius]Ok so everyone here thinks the Raven is now still crap, here is a hint:

N A N O R A V E N


You mean the Typhoon, right? Nano typhoon will slap the **** out of a nano Raven, I am positive.



You should look at the stats dude, the typhoons mass makes it really really fat, iv plugged both ships into EvEHQ, Typhoon is 200m/s slower and aligns 3 seconds slower

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2013-04-09 16:19:02 UTC
This war on resist bonuses is ill-advised, and I think it should be dropped.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
ACH1LL35
Discharged Kinetics
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#171 - 2013-04-09 16:37:31 UTC
how About Taking Two High Slot And Put Then To Low So You Can Make The Scorpion Have A LiTtle Armor tank
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#172 - 2013-04-09 16:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
Sir, why don't you review a copy of Strunk and White?

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Geralt Rittersporn
Geralt Rittersporn Trading
#173 - 2013-04-09 16:41:42 UTC
Raven mobility: 113

Tempest mobility: 120

The slow combat BS is faster then a fast attack BS.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2013-04-09 16:47:12 UTC
Geralt Rittersporn wrote:
Raven mobility: 113

Tempest mobility: 120

The slow combat BS is faster then a fast attack BS.


Align Time: Typhoon 15.8 > Megathron 15.96 > Apocalypse 16.02 > Hyperion 16.36 > Raven 16.52 > Scorpion 16.66 > Dominix 16.88 > Tempest 17.18 > Armageddon 19.96 > Maelstrom 19.53 > Rokh 19.85 > Abaddon 20.03

Max Velocity: Typhoon 130 > Megathron 122 > Temptest 120 > Hyperion 115 > Apocalypse 113 > Raven 113 > Dominix 109 > Armageddon 100 > Scorpion 94 > Maelstrom 94 > Rokh 89 > Abaddon 89

Agility: Typhoon 0.11 > Scorpion 0.116 > Megathron 0.117 > Hyperion 0.1178 > Apocalypse > 0.119 > Tempest 0.12 > Raven 0.12 > Dominix 0.1254 > Armageddon 0.13 > Maelstrom 0.136 > Rokh 0.136 > Abaddon 0.14

Mass: Apocalypse 97100000 > Magathron 98400000 > Raven 99300000 > Hyperion 100200000 > Dominix 100250000 > Tempest 103300000 > Typhoon 103600000 > Scorpion 103600000 > Maelstrom 103600000 > Armageddon 105200000 > Rokh 105300000 > Abaddon 125000000

Oh will you look at the mass difference, thats one fat b i t c h, raven is still faster.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-04-09 16:48:04 UTC
Bakuhz wrote:

and most of all we dont want to get back in frigate raping raven's shooting you at 250km away
Roll

Yea, you can go grab some coffee and still have time to warp away without much hurry before the missile arrives... Evil
It's not like with arties that blap you instantly...
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#176 - 2013-04-09 16:51:10 UTC
Well, like it or not, we seem to be heading to an era of arty alpha dominance, with the only ships that can effectively oppose it being made significantly worse. All hail CCP Rise's alphafleet. Ugh

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#177 - 2013-04-09 16:51:39 UTC
Please stop this madness and go back to the drawing board. Please. Your proposed changes to the Raven will make it into a second class version of the new Typhoon (a change that I HATE, by the way - the 'Phoon should not become a weak at the knees, armor tanked wannabe Raven) for a little extra speed. This change will not make the Raven more viable in PVP (only a major revamp of missiles can do that) and will make it less survivable in PVE.

I sincerely hope that what you come up with in the next couple of days is a LOT better than the ill-focused, homogenized mess that this first pass was.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#178 - 2013-04-09 16:54:30 UTC
So I actually plugged things into EFT and here's what I came up with, using my skills and no implants. This is probably an utterly awful fit, but whatever:

Joke Raven

Low
3x BCS II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Med
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
100MN Afterburner II
2x LSE II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II (could probably switch one for an EM hardener I guess)
Warp Disruptor II

High
6x Torpedo Launcher II

Rig
I don't know what rigs to put on it, rigors utterly mince it's tank (Like, "I had to double check to make sure I'm not flying a torp naga trying for max tank" bad), shield rigs utterly mince damage application (but I put in 3x core defense field extender I's as placeholders I guess)

1005 paper DPS (it won't ever reach that high on any non-POS, I'm aware), 6224 raw volley damage, 98,419 EHP. Goes 1125m/s with MWD, 417m/s with AB. Both have align time changed from 9.1 seconds to 14. (With the implants I have, I break 100k EHP, velocities change to 1205m/s with MWD and 443m/s with AB).

I can't believe I'm saying this but the Raven has pros when compared to the Typhoon.

Pro 1) Shield Typhoon cannot dual prop, unless it wants to have even less tank. Must choose armor if dual prop is desired and automatically become slower. By a lot.

Pro 2) Caracal vs. Bellicose. Exact same missile ranges for some arcane reason, meaning that a Raven can actually... Kite an armor typhoon now.

Pro 3) It looks like the Armor Typhoon still has to sacrifice a damage mod for armor tank. Raven has none of that, meaning it can still run with three BCS II and actually deal more damage.

I don't know if it'll actually be good though until I get a chance to fly it on the test server.
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#179 - 2013-04-09 17:04:36 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:
I feel the resist bonus is out of place on the rokh. If you want a sniper go with a naga, if you want a heavier sniper then change the resist bonus to damage to match the naga. Half a brawler, half a sniper doesn't make a viable ship.

Its designed to kite at close range with Blasters, the only reason Rails were used was when they were good 3+ years ago til they got nerf bat

Kite, with what speed it doesn't have? You can't even get close!
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#180 - 2013-04-09 17:11:07 UTC
Its called a deadspace mwd, there are several types available at a lower price point.

Post your advanced battleship ideas here!