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EVE Online: Retribution 1.0 Feedback

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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1601 - 2012-12-13 19:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Even with a bounty on his head, Concord will still kill the suicide-ganker. Bounties DO NOT give you a right to kill somebody. People should really try reading. This has now been stated HUNDREDS of times.


It does seem this is largely overlooked. The math on a high sec gank used to be that it was profit if what dropped was worth more than what you burned to make the kill (leaving aside time cost like ratting to keep sec status up, etc.). All that a bounty means is it's profit if what you burn costs less than 120% of what you killed (more or less; considering that the bounty is figured on the total value and not just what drops, it will be somewhat more than a 20% "bonus" on most bounty ganks). I don't know how the math is going to work out in practice, but it doesn't mean that it suddenly became profitable to go around popping noobships in your Tornado just because someone has a $36B bounty on their head.

The real problems seem to be things like the fact that they missed a huge opportunity for taxes and fees to increase the ISK sink effect, and there are some outright exploits like gankers aggressing each other first, in order to collect their own bounties off each other.

It also is just silly looking when every single person is running around with a stupid WANTED tag hanging off their ship. At least make it so we can set a threshold so this tag only displays on anyone in space (including on our own ship), if the bounty total is above whatever X amount we specify.

Others have already suggested stuff that would fix what problems the system has:

(1) There should be NO payout to anyone, and no reduction of the bounty, if CONCORD is involved in a kill. If CONCORD does even 1 point of damage, then it should not be a bounty kill. This completely solves the ganksploit.

(2) There should be appropriate nonrefundable and probably pretty steep commissions on bounties, that get added on top of the amount you post. Ten or twenty percent seems fair as a starting point. A trainable skill to reduce this by half at level 5 would also be fair.

(3) Bounties should never be refunded, even if the person or corp is deleted or disbands. If you drove them out of the game, then you got what you paid for. Any bounty pool on a deleted character or corp should just go into the big black hole of the ISK sink. Yes, this does mean people can make "bait" corps and toons just to attract and flush bounties. Every playstyle is valid in EVE.

(4) There should be a limit of exactly ONE bounty you can place at a time by default (since you can't retract them, and you can't place another until the first one is fully paid, you need to think hard about who to put that one marker on). There should also be a skill that, like Contracts, would let you place up to 20 at level 5. If you rely on bounties as part of your personal security plan, then this will be training time well spent.

(5) You should be able to "buy off" your current bounty pool at any time by paying exactly 5x the current outstanding amount. The impact on you is the same (you take a loss 5x what was posted), and it makes some sense that you ought to be able to bribe the Bounty Commission or whoever it is that we imagine runs this for about 5x the amount that was posted. It also means that the economic muscle of the two sides to a bounty war "matters." So you can go on posting 100m on me all day long, and I'll keep buying it off just to spite you, because I can. We'll see who goes broke first.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
T703
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1602 - 2012-12-14 00:24:58 UTC
Was hoping this Retribution would fix my Gila so that I can actually fit it properly for PVP.
Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#1603 - 2012-12-14 00:42:41 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Even with a bounty on his head, Concord will still kill the suicide-ganker. Bounties DO NOT give you a right to kill somebody. People should really try reading. This has now been stated HUNDREDS of times.


It does seem this is largely overlooked. The math on a high sec gank used to be that it was profit if what dropped was worth more than what you burned to make the kill (leaving aside time cost like ratting to keep sec status up, etc.). All that a bounty means is it's profit if what you burn costs less than 120% of what you killed (more or less; considering that the bounty is figured on the total value and not just what drops, it will be somewhat more than a 20% "bonus" on most bounty ganks). I don't know how the math is going to work out in practice, but it doesn't mean that it suddenly became profitable to go around popping noobships in your Tornado just because someone has a $36B bounty on their head.

The real problems seem to be things like the fact that they missed a huge opportunity for taxes and fees to increase the ISK sink effect, and there are some outright exploits like gankers aggressing each other first, in order to collect their own bounties off each other.

It also is just silly looking when every single person is running around with a stupid WANTED tag hanging off their ship. At least make it so we can set a threshold so this tag only displays on anyone in space (including on our own ship), if the bounty total is above whatever X amount we specify.

Others have already suggested stuff that would fix what problems the system has:

(1) There should be NO payout to anyone, and no reduction of the bounty, if CONCORD is involved in a kill. If CONCORD does even 1 point of damage, then it should not be a bounty kill. This completely solves the ganksploit.

(2) There should be appropriate nonrefundable and probably pretty steep commissions on bounties, that get added on top of the amount you post. Ten or twenty percent seems fair as a starting point. A trainable skill to reduce this by half at level 5 would also be fair.

(3) Bounties should never be refunded, even if the person or corp is deleted or disbands. If you drove them out of the game, then you got what you paid for. Any bounty pool on a deleted character or corp should just go into the big black hole of the ISK sink. Yes, this does mean people can make "bait" corps and toons just to attract and flush bounties. Every playstyle is valid in EVE.

(4) There should be a limit of exactly ONE bounty you can place at a time by default (since you can't retract them, and you can't place another until the first one is fully paid, you need to think hard about who to put that one marker on). There should also be a skill that, like Contracts, would let you place up to 20 at level 5. If you rely on bounties as part of your personal security plan, then this will be training time well spent.

(5) You should be able to "buy off" your current bounty pool at any time by paying exactly 5x the current outstanding amount. The impact on you is the same (you take a loss 5x what was posted), and it makes some sense that you ought to be able to bribe the Bounty Commission or whoever it is that we imagine runs this for about 5x the amount that was posted. It also means that the economic muscle of the two sides to a bounty war "matters." So you can go on posting 100m on me all day long, and I'll keep buying it off just to spite you, because I can. We'll see who goes broke first.


CCP: Hire this person as a consultant! Damn good idea's here!

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1604 - 2012-12-14 10:16:51 UTC
seconded!

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
PryMary
nul-li-fy
#1605 - 2012-12-14 10:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: PryMary
Dear CCP,

I really do not like the fact that you still have a weapon timer when warping to a gate in a pod after the destruction of a ship, surely a session change from destroyed ship to pod should cancel the weapon timer out?

Regards,

Pry
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#1606 - 2012-12-14 11:01:46 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:

(1) There should be NO payout to anyone, and no reduction of the bounty, if CONCORD is involved in a kill. If CONCORD does even 1 point of damage, then it should not be a bounty kill. This completely solves the ganksploit.


No. Suicide ganking to harvest someone's bounty seems like a completely valid game mechanic to me. Weighing the cost of your ship versus the return on the bounty. Its challenging and fun as a career. Removing the ability to suicide gank people who hide in highsec with multibillion isk bounties, will basically relegate the entire system to basically a bit of a bonus whenever you kill a ship.

Freighdee Katt wrote:

(2) There should be appropriate nonrefundable and probably pretty steep commissions on bounties, that get added on top of the amount you post. Ten or twenty percent seems fair as a starting point. A trainable skill to reduce this by half at level 5 would also be fair.

(4) There should be a limit of exactly ONE bounty you can place at a time by default (since you can't retract them, and you can't place another until the first one is fully paid, you need to think hard about who to put that one marker on). There should also be a skill that, like Contracts, would let you place up to 20 at level 5. If you rely on bounties as part of your personal security plan, then this will be training time well spent.


Also no. Bounties used to be even cheaper then they are now. This is the sort of thing that disincentivizes the applying of bounties at all. I think the bounty system as it stands is great, and forces players to accept consequences for their actions. The system is new and still settling out, but I think in the long run, it will be a really excellent part of the game, and nerfing it like this would basically break it all over again.

Freighdee Katt wrote:

(3) Bounties should never be refunded, even if the person or corp is deleted or disbands. If you drove them out of the game, then you got what you paid for. Any bounty pool on a deleted character or corp should just go into the big black hole of the ISK sink. Yes, this does mean people can make "bait" corps and toons just to attract and flush bounties. Every playstyle is valid in EVE.

This I actually agree with, though I think the bounty refund on inactives might be less to do with ISK and more to do with freeing up database space.

Freighdee Katt wrote:

(5) You should be able to "buy off" your current bounty pool at any time by paying exactly 5x the current outstanding amount. The impact on you is the same (you take a loss 5x what was posted), and it makes some sense that you ought to be able to bribe the Bounty Commission or whoever it is that we imagine runs this for about 5x the amount that was posted. It also means that the economic muscle of the two sides to a bounty war "matters." So you can go on posting 100m on me all day long, and I'll keep buying it off just to spite you, because I can. We'll see who goes broke first.

I agree with this as well. I also think you should be able to buy back your sec status, and bribe customs officers to let you into highsec with drugs, and all manner of shady gameplay. As a pirate roleplayer, I feel like things are pretty light on the ground in terms of criminal activities beyond blowing up ships.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1607 - 2012-12-14 13:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Saede Riordan wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:

(1) There should be NO payout to anyone, and no reduction of the bounty, if CONCORD is involved in a kill. If CONCORD does even 1 point of damage, then it should not be a bounty kill. This completely solves the ganksploit.


No. Suicide ganking to harvest someone's bounty seems like a completely valid game mechanic to me. Weighing the cost of your ship versus the return on the bounty. Its challenging and fun as a career. Removing the ability to suicide gank people who hide in highsec with multibillion isk bounties, will basically relegate the entire system to basically a bit of a bonus whenever you kill a ship.

We're talking about two different things here. If a bounty hunter suicide ganks you in high sec, because you have a bounty on your head, then they do (and should) get the bounty payout. CONCORD does not kill you, the bounty hunter does, so it's all good. The bounty hunter burns a ship, and he gets the loot + bounty.

The exploit occurs when bounty hunters inevitably wind up with bounties on their OWN heads and, prior to engaging for a suicide gank, a bounty hunter gang all aggress each other first. CONCORD comes in and kills all of them, and they each collect on the bounties for the other members of their gang, as well as whoever they ganked. That's just dumb. Since it was CONCORD that killed them and not each other, they should get nothing from the bounties on the members of the gank squad. They would still collect the bounty payout on whoever the actual gank target was, because CONCORD does not fire on the target of a suicide gank, only on the gankers.

The rule is just that if CONCORD does 1 point of damage on the target, then there is no bounty payout for anyone from the death of that target. Anyone else in the fight who CONCORD does not fire on, it's business as usual. Gank someone else, you can get their bounty. But you do not collect your own bounty by getting CONCORD to gank you.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Scaugh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1608 - 2012-12-14 14:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Scaugh
The release of Retribution and more specifically the NPC AI upgrades / downgrades of whatever grades you think they should be has me thinking of CCP are more like Laurel & Hardy movie and less like a competent games developer.

Linkage … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96po3FRJ9uk

CCP quote of the week should be :

Q. When did EvE die?
A. I think it died on a Tuesday
Damzan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1609 - 2012-12-14 14:04:46 UTC
C Taco wrote:
stagz wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
stagz wrote:
Dear CCP,

I would like to bring your attention an exploit in Wardec mechanics. This exploit is preventing my corporation from joining any alliance for the foreseeable future.

I do not believe it is CCPs intention to have the new war dec mechanics permanently stop corporations from joining alliances.
My corporation left its previous alliance on the 30th of November, nearly 2 weeks ago, and we are still locked out of joining an alliance because of exploits surrounding your new war dec mechanics.
outlined here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2244162#post2244162

This is totally unacceptable, if you are unable to fix the issue which appears to be the case after a patch which claimed to fix the issue has failed, REMOVE ALL EXPLOIT war decs from my corporation.
Allowing us to play the game that we pay for and subscribe to with out being negatively effected by broken mechanics and the admitted exploitation of other alliances and corporations.


I thought this was fixed as of last patch and those wars should now end (in a week or so).

Isn't this applicable:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2306100#post2306100
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2306920#post2306920


Unfortunately we have been told it has been fixed previously, and it has not.

All the wars we are currently under are 100% invalid and exploits, CCP should delete them and allow us to go about our business.

They intervene in other cases of exploitation, why should this be any different, making us wait 3weeks while they fumble around is unacceptable when the issue can be fixed with the click of a button, until they have found a way to fix their broken mechanic.

This has got to the point of ridiculousness.
Its hard to run an alliance when u cant join it.. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, NOT IN A WEEK OR A MONTH, NOW!


CCP only interfere with cases of exploitation when their Goon boses point the way. Do you remember back when that Goon dude Kittens was a member of the CSM,? Then stuff got done!! Speaking off. what ever happened to the CSM, did they wind them up with Dominion or something? Have not heard of them since.

You can get a ban warning for convo spaming but not using the wardec exploit? Odd. Or it a "feature"? :-)


Never had any outcome on the goons stealing 5 trillion isk after the inferno expansion because of their exploit in FW. Last I heard CCP were giving away plex's to the perpetrators ? Should we expect more from CCP when CFC alts have been carrying out exploits with their Decshield alts ever since Retribution 1.0 was released..? Seems you need to be sucking CCP shaft to get anywhere in this game...
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1610 - 2012-12-14 15:39:44 UTC
Scaugh wrote:
The release of Retribution and more specifically the NPC AI upgrades / downgrades of whatever grades you think they should be has me thinking of CCP are more like Laurel & Hardy movie and less like a competent games developer.

Linkage … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96po3FRJ9uk

CCP quote of the week should be :

Q. When did EvE die?
A. I think it died on a Tuesday

Many people have said that EvE is very complex and the players have to be smart to play the game. Maybe the players are smart, but the dev team does not seem to be.

The player behavior surrounding the new bounty system is very much like a statement to CCP saying "Looky what we can do now! Jezz, you guys sure are stupid." What exactly is the point of having meaningless bounties on almost EVERY player ?

They call for "tiericide" and yet they now removed the two lateral branches of the ship tree (destroyers/battle cruisers) and made it into a linear skill based progression, thus adding to the tier based structure.

They broadly introduced Sleeper AI mechanics that depend upon fewer but tougher ships, doh, but they didn't adjust the ratz to fewer and tougher. This and the HM nerf have (arguably) decimated entire lines of vessels. And this is desirable and working as intended ? In fact, my in-game tests in my Thanny show that the new AI actually makes botting or AFK ratting much easier. Yeah right: working as intended.

Salvage drones that won't auto salvage fleet wrecks ... Hmm ... When am I NOT in a fleet? I'm always in a fleet. If I am flying solo, then I'll just use a Noctis. Who actually develops this functionality? I know, it's Bonzo the chimp. No wait, Sponge Bob.

Sorry if this seems like a rant, because actually, I'm getting highly apathetic about EvE. With all the stupidly implemented changes, I just don't care any more. The developers do not seem to consider the FUN factor.

In SWtOR, they now give you entry-to-high-end-level gear when you max your toon. I and many other players raged about how much time it took to acquire our high end gear ... and now it's given away. But, as a result, tons of players are now enjoying the challenging high end content. Groups for the high end content are significantly easier to get into. Players are a lot more happy, overall, and having a lot more fun. I sure am, despite my initial complaints and skepticism about a controversial change.

Where is the FUN factor CCP? Change does not automatically = FUN. So, we definitely get lot of change, but (IMHO) little to none has added to the fun. Unless you enjoy scaring off noobs by placing 100K bounties on them.

Why can't we have smart development to match the smart players ? I think the dev teams need to start any new process by asking two questions: Will this change be fun? How is this change going to more fun than existing content?

I think what they actually ask is: How will this change contribute to our bankruptcy?

No, nobody can haz my cheezburgerz.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#1611 - 2012-12-14 16:05:16 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:

(1) There should be NO payout to anyone, and no reduction of the bounty, if CONCORD is involved in a kill. If CONCORD does even 1 point of damage, then it should not be a bounty kill. This completely solves the ganksploit.


No. Suicide ganking to harvest someone's bounty seems like a completely valid game mechanic to me. Weighing the cost of your ship versus the return on the bounty. Its challenging and fun as a career. Removing the ability to suicide gank people who hide in highsec with multibillion isk bounties, will basically relegate the entire system to basically a bit of a bonus whenever you kill a ship.

We're talking about two different things here. If a bounty hunter suicide ganks you in high sec, because you have a bounty on your head, then they do (and should) get the bounty payout. CONCORD does not kill you, the bounty hunter does, so it's all good. The bounty hunter burns a ship, and he gets the loot + bounty.

The exploit occurs when bounty hunters inevitably wind up with bounties on their OWN heads and, prior to engaging for a suicide gank, a bounty hunter gang all aggress each other first. CONCORD comes in and kills all of them, and they each collect on the bounties for the other members of their gang, as well as whoever they ganked. That's just dumb. Since it was CONCORD that killed them and not each other, they should get nothing from the bounties on the members of the gank squad. They would still collect the bounty payout on whoever the actual gank target was, because CONCORD does not fire on the target of a suicide gank, only on the gankers.

The rule is just that if CONCORD does 1 point of damage on the target, then there is no bounty payout for anyone from the death of that target. Anyone else in the fight who CONCORD does not fire on, it's business as usual. Gank someone else, you can get their bounty. But you do not collect your own bounty by getting CONCORD to gank you.


Oh okay I misunderstood there. That sounds fine to me.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1612 - 2012-12-14 18:27:03 UTC
Korinne wrote:
Arch Convivitor wrote:
Mak YuTsai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Well, let me pose this reply to your question: as most players do not use eve's audio at all (seriously, there have been a staggering number of 'eve has audio?' jokes at this point, you guys should take a hint) why are you punishing those of us that do by taking away our control of it?
82% of EVE players play with sound on and has increased from 80% since the release of Retribution.

'Sound On'. No doubt. We depend on the important sound cues that EVE provides. Much of our current frustration focuses on having to play with diminished customisation and one particularly nasty new sound - the Klang- in order to receive these useful ingame cues.


Having the sound on because you need to hear certain things, does not equate to enjoying the overall sound experience.
I wonder what proportion of that 82% has turned their system sound down to a bare minimum, as I have?


I still wanna know where he found that number.


Winston S. Churchill - "I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself"
Lysa Riay
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1613 - 2012-12-14 19:28:21 UTC
Can someone provide Team Klang with hearing tests, the new (klangs, slams & plops) sounds are alot louder that all the old sounds and dont scale with distance,
please please please normalise them at the very least, or remove them until you find why they DO NOT WORK correctly

But even once they scale they ARE STILL far too LOUD

Could Klang take the (now rotting) pizzas & the launcher out as they leave the building plz.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1614 - 2012-12-14 19:59:16 UTC
Lysa Riay wrote:
Can someone provide Team Klang with hearing tests, the new (klangs, slams & plops) sounds are alot louder that all the old sounds and dont scale with distance,
please please please normalise them at the very least, or remove them until you find why they DO NOT WORK correctly

But even once they scale they ARE STILL far too LOUD

And they sound like some retro '50s sci fi sound FX. Very disappointing.

Comparing: SWtOR has sound FX taken directly from the Industrial Light and Magic libraries. The total sound is 3D spatial audiophile quality. The sound experience in SWtOR is superb if you have the audio gear to appreciate it. I do .

And because I hear every detail on my audiophile quality sound system, I have silenced the sound in EvE. I can't take it. It sucks. Not just compared to SWtOR. It simply sucks. It is suckage of he highest order and I won't insult my sound system or my ears with such garbage.
Snoodaard Thrasy
Yulai Guard
#1615 - 2012-12-15 01:17:53 UTC


Still patiently waiting until CCP fixes the tracking disruption issue from rats.

Let me emphasize, this is not just some inconvenience that players need to work around. CCP made any form of sensible turret based ratting against TD rats impossible. Fix it!
Nobani
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1616 - 2012-12-15 08:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nobani
Dear CCP:

If you want us to be continually launching and recalling drones so we "pay attention", can please put the single drone commands somewhere other than burried deep in the middle of a right-click menu. An Icon next to the drone HP would be nice.

There are a lot of similar little things that make that interface a real pain. I suggest having a "drone-day" at the office where everyone does PvE in a drone ship for half a day. You'd probably get some good feedback (and a sharp uptick in carpel tunnel).

P.S. I thought I wouldn't like the new rat AI, but it's not bad -- if the drone UI was easier to use. As is, it's frustrating -- losing drones to not being able to navigate the UI fast enough.
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1617 - 2012-12-15 09:42:08 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:

Sorry if this seems like a rant, because actually, I'm getting highly apathetic about EvE. With all the stupidly implemented changes, I just don't care any more. The developers do not seem to consider the FUN factor.


Retribution has extraordinarily high FUN factor, it was designed by internet spaceship combat lovers for internet spaceship combat lovers, and as a result there is more good fights to be had than I have time for.

You know, most people are out there flying and enjoying the new ships with their friends, instead of whining on the forums.

I'm going too, see you Cool
Necroromantic
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1618 - 2012-12-15 11:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Necroromantic
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:

Sorry if this seems like a rant, because actually, I'm getting highly apathetic about EvE. With all the stupidly implemented changes, I just don't care any more. The developers do not seem to consider the FUN factor.


Retribution has extraordinarily high FUN factor, it was designed by internet spaceship combat lovers for internet spaceship combat lovers, and as a result there is more good fights to be had than I have time for.

You know, most people are out there flying and enjoying the new ships with their friends, instead of whining on the forums.

I'm going too, see you Cool


So only players here whining are upset?

No ones point of view is being supressed?
Players on this thread have been bountied as has their corps for having an opinion just to shut them up.


Everyone else is having fun fun fun???
Where is your statistics to back up the statement?

Maybe CCP should post the statistics for players logging in and time spent online playing for both before and after the retribution patch was released... show us whiners all these happy space bunnies..

I have seen a drop of 5k - 8k (on average) in players logged on at any time I have opened the launcher page..

So maybe before you just snuff someone else for having an opinion you should check your rebuke is actually based in facts!
Or at least ask for the facts too.

Also for someone claiming to not have enough time to enjoy all this new found fun I'm surprised you have the time to come here just to ***** at someone else's point of view... a point of view shared by more than 3/4 of all the posts..

Quick see if you can spot the grammer and spelling mistakes b4 someone else does.. i left them just for you!! :)
Umaga
Red Sun Trading
#1619 - 2012-12-15 11:46:52 UTC
They removed the jukebox. This is the worst expansion ever. Bring it back!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#1620 - 2012-12-15 12:02:38 UTC
Necro,

Everything in EvE is pvp....even posting here on the forums. Prior to the bounty system, ganks were staged and wars were initiated based on forum warrior disagreements. That's pvp. Bounties are simply an extension of this dynamic. In fact, some people are asking for a bounty button to be added here too so bounties can be placed without even using the client.

YK