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EVE Online: Retribution 1.0 Feedback

First post
Author
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#1641 - 2012-12-16 04:28:41 UTC
Bad expansion is still bad, and Ribikoka and Wigster are still noobs.
Bill Henry Cosby
The Lollercaust
#1642 - 2012-12-16 04:49:09 UTC
I wanted to add my own feelings about the new AI here, even though a few people have mentioned it.
I like the new idea of a challenging AI, and from my experience it's been really awesome at times, having to be more coordinated with my friend whom I'm usually running with, broadcasting targets more often and incorporating some fleet tactics and need for communication into PvE.

However things feel way unbalanced to the point where it randomly goes from challenging fun to, "wtf are we supposed to do with this?" levels. Drones being vaporized so quickly, E-War being insane at times, definitely issues. My biggest problem is the way and rate at which enemies switch targets to other ships.

I've never been much about maxing the efficiency of Isk/hour, however I can of enjoyed how before you could use teamwork to still get nice results out of less optimized or a just diverse fits, granted the AI was boring. Now however, it feels like so many builds are just cut out, because anything that enters a combat zone needs to be able to potentially tank everything that could possibly engage you at once. I'm not talking about the full room aggro bug, but certain sites where there is just large groups of BS BCs and other ships, which can collectively melt anything but the tankiest ships with combined firepower.

Usually previously, I'd run a tanky fit with a friend supporting with DPS, now however, even with a more survivable build, because my friend doesn't have an Ultra-Tank, he gets burned up because randomly, every single ship that was engaging me, switches over to him all at once. There's no in-between or incremental uptick in challenge, its just BOOM, alpha strike time.

Try not to take this as a BAAAW post or whatever, because I could care less about max isk per hour, and yes, there are still ways we can adapt, but I just feel there was a lot of potential for fun, the main reason I play eve, that was missed in this switch from one extreme to the other.

What it could of been:

If there was more balance to the way AI switched targets, more intelligence and more rationality, It would open the doors for more advanced tactics and teamwork being the solution that wins the day. For example, if only some smaller portion of NPCs switched targets at a time, it would keep the non tanky player from being forced to immediately leave, instead causing us to have to switch up our methods and deal with those switching targets. Or if it was specific like, dealing damage to a ship gets that specific ship's attention, so we could say, have a tactic of having one player slapping around some of the ships at random to grab and keep their attention, or just keeping us a bit more on our toes about target priorities.

As it currently stands, I was in one site, tanking the room, then joined by my friend who immediately drew the entire aggro of everybody in the room engaged with me, regardless of if I had already destroyed some of their buddies, laid out more damage or was the bigger more threatening target. It turned into deal 5 seconds of damage, warp out, repair, warp in, repeat, because time after time, they would give him no more than 10 seconds of presence before switching to him.

It's just exhausting in the same way it was before, being dull and boring due to the overpredicatability of what they'd do (immediately pick on the weakest ship they could). There's a sweet spot here that lies in between these two extremes that I think could still be hit with the right amount of balance.

****
Not to mention, some of my best memories in this game are of doing tough encounters with mixed groups of people being helped by some tankier more experienced players, with some of the less experienced ones, like myself in the past, still finding ways to contribute. Now that just doesn't seem possible at all, and it's kind of depressing, not because I'm losing money, but because I'm missing out on enjoyable experiences I could be having with other people.
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#1643 - 2012-12-16 05:46:26 UTC
Bounty system is fantastic!- Bounties are paying people to pvp.. they are paying me to pvp when i win a fight and they are paying my enemies to pvp when i lose! Great feature- way to go CCP, i applaud your hands off approach of encouraging PvP throughout New Eden.

On behalf of all fun loving Pirates and PvP enthusiasts.......

Thank You !
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1644 - 2012-12-16 07:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Maelle LuzArdiden
Bill Henry Cosby wrote:


Usually previously, I'd run a tanky fit with a friend supporting with DPS, now however, even with a more survivable build, because my friend doesn't have an Ultra-Tank, he gets burned up because randomly, every single ship that was engaging me, switches over to him all at once. There's no in-between or incremental uptick in challenge, its just BOOM, alpha strike time.
lies in between these two extremes that I think could still be hit with the right amount of balance.

****
Not to mention, some of my best memories in this game are of doing tough encounters with mixed groups of people being helped by some tankier more experienced players, with some of the less experienced ones, like myself in the past, still finding ways to contribute. Now that just doesn't seem possible at all, and it's kind of depressing, not because I'm losing money, but because I'm missing out on enjoyable experiences I could be having with other people.


Keyword here is "previously". Don't you think you should also change your tactics when AI changes?
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1645 - 2012-12-16 11:28:14 UTC
Necroromantic wrote:


So only players here whining are upset?


Yeah, there's more people logged on and flying in space :)

You should try too!
Jack Mancetti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1646 - 2012-12-16 12:14:35 UTC
Did CCP take chances to the Faction spawns in Belts,dont see any spawn since Retribution ???
Tazarak theDeceiver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1647 - 2012-12-16 13:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tazarak theDeceiver
I'd like to give an additional thumbs down to the new AI. I began playing Eve after more than a decade of playing other MMOS. The appeal was the casual pace, low twitch reflex, ability to do laundry and multitask chores atop belt ratting or the like. I always felt I wad making isk or progress even when feeding the baby, surfing the web or composing emails.

Ten years into the game and the new AI is introduced to make PVE more challenging and similar to other MMOs. This was surely in good intent, but grievously misguided.

- Changing the fundamental PVE mechanics this far into the games lifespan will not attract new players, perhaps will scintillate some existing players, but in all practicality is just pissing people off. We're 'working' harder for the same isk but at greater risk. This isn't the game to which I subscribed.

- You should have created more challenging pve through added content, rather than screwing up a fairly stable (albeit predictable) set of missions, anomalies and plexes. Or you could have politely directed people to wormholes if they wanted harder pve. If I desired to fight sleeper AI, I would be in a wormhole now rather than typing this. If creating new content was "too time consuming", you might want to rethink that position after the manhours you are about to spend 'fixing' missions, drone aggro and pve.

- You have made a pig's ear of the AI changes. None of these complexes, anoms or missions were designed to this standard of rat behaviour, and are thus screwed up. The drone targeting code is borked. By the time you have sorted this mess out, and it is a mess, you could have created dozens of new missions andanoms. Instead you 'fixed' a casual pve system which few felt was broken and with no real upside.

- In case you missed the memo, PVE in Eve works by your ship doing generous damage to ships of roughly equal size. This is what the weapons systems are optimized for. Smaller targets are problematic, thus we have drones. Now drones are getting savaged, so we're spending countless minutes and hours watching large weapon systems lob countless volleys of expensive ammo to kill elite frigates which have you scrammed or webbed. How is this fun again?

- Complexes which operate on waves if mass dps are deeply imbalanced.

- it's Sunday here and I'd normally be looking forward to a long day's Eve time. Instead I'm feeling disinterested. Like last night I needed to change a diaper, but wad scrambled by a belt rat of all things. It took ages, baby was screaming and I felt like just canceling then and there. I felt that the game was playing me, it me it.

So from my perspective you've missed the pulse of your customers on this one by introducing a change few, if any, wanted and it's turning out badly. Will you be brave enough to admit your mistake? Or will you insist on presuming what is best for your player base?
Sarah Valdez
STAHLREAKTOR
#1648 - 2012-12-16 14:02:41 UTC
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I'd like to give an additional thumbs down to the new AI. I began playing Eve after more than a decade of playing other MMOS. The appeal was the casual pace, low twitch reflex, ability to do laundry and multitask chores atop belt ratting or the like. I always felt I wad making isk or progress even when feeding the baby, surfing the web or composing emails.

Ten years into the game and the new AI is introduced to make PVE more challenging and similar to other MMOs. This was surely in good intent, but grievously misguided.

- Changing the fundamental PVE mechanics this far into the games lifespan will not attract new players, perhaps will scintillate some existing players, but in all practicality is just pissing people off. We're 'working' harder for the same isk but at greater risk. This isn't the game to which I subscribed.

- You should have created more challenging pve through added content, rather than screwing up a fairly stable (albeit predictable) set of missions, anomalies and plexes. Or you could have politely directed people to wormholes if they wanted harder pve. If I desired to fight sleeper AI, I would be in a wormhole now rather than typing this. If creating new content was "too time consuming", you might want to rethink that position after the manhours you are about to spend 'fixing' missions, drone aggro and pve.

- You have made a pig's ear of the AI changes. None of these complexes, anoms or missions were designed to this standard of rat behaviour, and are thus screwed up. The drone targeting code is borked. By the time you have sorted this mess out, and it is a mess, you could have created dozens of new missions andanoms. Instead you 'fixed' a casual pve system which few felt was broken and with no real upside.

- In case you missed the memo, PVE in Eve works by your ship doing generous damage to ships of roughly equal size. This is what the weapons systems are optimized for. Smaller targets are problematic, thus we have drones. Now drones are getting savaged, so we're spending countless minutes and hours watching large weapon systems lob countless volleys of expensive ammo to kill elite frigates which have you scrammed or webbed. How is this fun again?

- Complexes which operate on waves if mass dps are deeply imbalanced.

- it's Sunday here and I'd normally be looking forward to a long day's Eve time. Instead I'm feeling disinterested. Like last night I needed to change a diaper, but wad scrambled by a belt rat of all things. It took ages, baby was screaming and I felt like just canceling then and there. I felt that the game was playing me, it me it.

So from my perspective you've missed the pulse of your customers on this one by introducing a change few, if any, wanted and it's turning out badly. Will you be brave enough to admit your mistake? Or will you insist on presuming what is best for your player base?


+1, nothing to add.
Toi Algaert
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1649 - 2012-12-16 14:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Toi Algaert
So have CCP still not repsonded to the AI Fail and given us drone users our skill points back yet ?

I have removed some off topic and unneeded attacks from this post. Please post in a responsible and polite manner. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Attacking CCP/profanity lol.

did i hurt your poor little feelings CCP. Awwww Diddums

Now i have the attention from "CCP" how about some answers and some feedback from CCP regarding all the all the people asking questions and wanting answers on the Drone Issue or is it just a case of pay your money and shut up ?
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1650 - 2012-12-16 15:07:22 UTC
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:

So from my perspective you've missed the pulse of your customers on this one by introducing a change few, if any, wanted and it's turning out badly. Will you be brave enough to admit your mistake? Or will you insist on presuming what is best for your player base?


What makes you think your diaper-changing, AFK playing is the pulse of customers? What if most players actually desire for an engaging and challenging experience for their money? You know, not all the people can afford to spend time on yawn-inducing, boring PVE. We have jobs and families, and when we have time to log on, we want to be entertained. This is why most people prefer to play with others, against others, and enjoy the thrill of PVP.

This is a sandbox MMO, where the majority of content is provided by players, to other players.

However, we also need to make ISK, and not everybody is market- or industry oriented, and these people need PVE to generate income. Do you understand how demotivating the old challenge-free grind is to these people?

Why not cater to audience and turn PVE into entertainment as well. Give the majority something to chew on, work on new tactics and fits, and shape NPC killing into something interesting instead of just F1, sleep, receive bounty.
Codo Yagari
Carmine Industries
#1651 - 2012-12-16 15:08:41 UTC
The fact that you can now put Bounties on anyone is a horrible idea. "Greetings Mr Ghandi, fancy becoming WANTED?" At least give us a chance CCP to not be wanted if we work for it. A system where anyone can put official bounties on anyone is broken.
Toi Algaert
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1652 - 2012-12-16 15:17:29 UTC
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:

So from my perspective you've missed the pulse of your customers on this one by introducing a change few, if any, wanted and it's turning out badly. Will you be brave enough to admit your mistake? Or will you insist on presuming what is best for your player base?


What makes you think your diaper-changing, AFK playing is the pulse of customers? What if most players actually desire for an engaging and challenging experience for their money? You know, not all the people can afford to spend time on yawn-inducing, boring PVE. We have jobs and families, and when we have time to log on, we want to be entertained. This is why most people prefer to play with others, against others, and enjoy the thrill of PVP.

This is a sandbox MMO, where the majority of content is provided by players, to other players.

However, we also need to make ISK, and not everybody is market- or industry oriented, and these people need PVE to generate income. Do you understand how demotivating the old challenge-free grind is to these people?

Why not cater to audience and turn PVE into entertainment as well. Give the majority something to chew on, work on new tactics and fits, and shape NPC killing into something interesting instead of just F1, sleep, receive bounty.


but then that requires ISK and getting to lvl4 missions takes most of the ISK you can make then you have to grind your ass off in lvl3's to get the isk together to get a half decent ship then once your in lvl4's its scram, web, neut war drop out your drones and everything goes ape pull your drones back in before they one pop them then all the aggro it directed at you and your a smear in space.

suppose you could go down the route of buying plex to fund your ships and then you still lose your ship at some point and all the money you invested but hey got to keep feeding CCP your cash and time.

Now think of all those people that grinded there ass off or spent real money to buy there ship's(lol) and then got booted in the teeth with the new patch.
Bill Henry Cosby
The Lollercaust
#1653 - 2012-12-16 18:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bill Henry Cosby
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Bill Henry Cosby wrote:


Usually previously, I'd run a tanky fit with a friend supporting with DPS, now however, even with a more survivable build, because my friend doesn't have an Ultra-Tank, he gets burned up because randomly, every single ship that was engaging me, switches over to him all at once. There's no in-between or incremental uptick in challenge, its just BOOM, alpha strike time.
lies in between these two extremes that I think could still be hit with the right amount of balance.

****
Not to mention, some of my best memories in this game are of doing tough encounters with mixed groups of people being helped by some tankier more experienced players, with some of the less experienced ones, like myself in the past, still finding ways to contribute. Now that just doesn't seem possible at all, and it's kind of depressing, not because I'm losing money, but because I'm missing out on enjoyable experiences I could be having with other people.


Keyword here is "previously". Don't you think you should also change your tactics when AI changes?


Maybe you should try taking the whole post in context. Or read this part you convieniently skipped over in an attempt to discredit the point i was making.

Bill Henry Cosby wrote:
Try not to take this as a BAAAW post or whatever, because I could care less about max isk per hour, and yes, there are still ways we can adapt, but I just feel there was a lot of potential for fun, the main reason I play eve, that was missed in this switch from one extreme to the other.

What it could of been:
If there was more balance to the way AI switched targets, more intelligence and more rationality, It would open the doors for more advanced tactics and teamwork being the solution that wins the day. For example, if only some smaller portion of NPCs switched targets at a time, it would keep the non tanky player from being forced to immediately leave, instead causing us to have to switch up our methods and deal with those switching targets. Or if it was specific like, dealing damage to a ship gets that specific ship's attention, so we could say, have a tactic of having one player slapping around some of the ships at random to grab and keep their attention, or just keeping us a bit more on our toes about target priorities.


I was trying to get across the idea that adapting now means even less variation to builds and strategies than before. There's actually less there tactics wise because we went from one extreme to another. My post was also about how many doors they could of opened tactics, strategy and otherwise, if there was a more balanced and detailed approach taken, before just upping the AI without any other modifications to the areas.
Eva Lawson
#1654 - 2012-12-16 20:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Eva Lawson
So, um... I've been playing around more since my last post, and just lately I decided "I'm gonna run a L2 mission for ***** and giggles; it's been a while since I chilled out with my Cruiser, and now that I have 15,000,000 SP, I wanna see how fast I kill ****."

So I'm lucky enough to get the L2 "The Blockade". It was always hard, but hell, I could handle the L3 and 4 versions no problem, let's have some fun... Right?

Okay CCP, I'm not going to mix words with you:

Who in the blue hell thought it was a good idea to make Tracking Disruptors the most ungodly overpowered thing in the world? When I can't hit a cruiser in an L2 mission at 0.001 Transversal with Pulse Lasers and a Tracking Enhancer because of Tracking Disruptors, you've ****** up. Could anyone tell me how a lower SP pilot would have any snowball's chance in hell of completing this mission? I ache for the 2 or 3mil SP pilots who get this mission, or any other mission lucky enough to have Tracking Disruptors in them, because they're going to lose interest real fast, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Of course, I'm not stupid, and I did sick all 5 of my T2 Hobgoblins on the Tracking Disruptors... Nearly lost two of them, because they all decided to shift aggro to one drone and beat the everliving out of it.

I love your game, CCP, but WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I wish I was exaggerating about missing my shots at 0.001 transversal with pulse lasers and a tracking enhancer, but I couldn't make that up! I'm sitting here in awe at my flying-wild blind shots while my drones chip away at the perpetrators. This is evil, man!

As an aside, I have 9mil bounty now, too, because... Well just because, actually. Someone put bounty on me because I was chatting with him in Local. I'm not upset, but I feel I need to ask: Doesn't the new bounty system kind of detract from the whole "bounty hunting" theme? It seems every two pilots I pass have bounty on them now, and 90% of them have security status greater than 1.0. It's kind of... stupid.

I have this awesome idea for a parody of the Retribution Trailer, where "Vic" is actually a newbie mission-runner, or Miner, or something otherwise completely non-threatening, and his heinous crime was looking funny at some guy with a huge chin, so chin-man puts 80 million bounty on Vic's head and he spends the rest of the episode getting destroyed every time he leaves the station. It's pretty funny in my head.

On a lighter note, I actually am really starting to miss my old weapon sounds. All railguns sound identical, all blasters sound identical, I'm sad about my laser sounds, too. :(

And so I don't look like a complete QQing baby (though we've already passed that point I guess), I really am digging the targeting system. I know exactly when my drones are in danger when the giant red circle shrinks or goes away. Oh, also, I don't know if this was during Retribution or prior to it, but the Reactive Armor Hardeners? Best thing ever. I'm carrying one on my BS from now on.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#1655 - 2012-12-16 20:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
Don't know if devs track this forum thread anymore-- or care-- but for what it is worth....

I and others have commented on an arcade-style sound from some weapons. I am sure others have noted which weapons they are disappointed with-- and probably more accurately than I.

Certainly, the "bang a gong" sound when ships blow up should be nominated the worst sound effect in gaming history.

For what it is worth, I have noted that, in particular, Gurista Dire Pith Nullifers make the most horrendous bleep-bleep (really more of a gloup-gloup, but I won't get technical) sounds, which bothers my sense of "Eve aesthetics".

I have grown to like the sounds of lasers, as I envision my ship's hull buckling under the extreme heat of the lasers.

Of course, missile sound effects are spectacular. (Do still wish the cruise/torpedo missiles didn't just shoot out from within the ship. For example, a torpedo/cruise missile could be lowed from a bay, then released once clear of the ship.)

But, wouldn't it make sense if weapon sound effects didn't occur when there is a miss? Take lasers as a prime example. What sound does a laser make in space if it misses your ship and passes harmlessly to starboard? However, I have come to a pet theory that Eve ships move through the Ether (perhaps better still Gravity Waves) due to their movement mechanics. So perhaps the sounds heard are the reverberations in these waves.

On a side notes related to "effects", I have strongly endorsed one Eve player's suggestion for certain ships to have a ship effect (I forget what the dev called these moving/changing ship effects) where cargo containers pile up on the decks of certain ships (e.g., Industrials/Miners/Orca/Rorquals?).
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1656 - 2012-12-16 21:18:29 UTC
Codo Yagari wrote:
The fact that you can now put Bounties on anyone is a horrible idea. "Greetings Mr Ghandi, fancy becoming WANTED?" At least give us a chance CCP to not be wanted if we work for it. A system where anyone can put official bounties on anyone is broken.


PLEX price still dropping. Bounty system working as intended. I for one am enjoying selling my KR's. It's like drinking my morning coffee - a warm spreading glow of satisfaction in finding LoSec waking up to the fact that KR's may come back to haunt them. Twisted

Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1657 - 2012-12-16 22:34:13 UTC
Korinne wrote:
Bad expansion is still bad, and Ribikoka and Wigster are still noobs.



Obvious troll is obvious
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1658 - 2012-12-16 23:55:13 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:

PLEX price still dropping. ...




Where ??? Still 580m where i bought Plex one month earlier but was six month earlier just 480m ISK.
Malia Terres
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1659 - 2012-12-17 00:01:02 UTC
Everything in the expansion has been pretty good except the sound changes.
Toi Algaert
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1660 - 2012-12-17 00:33:25 UTC
Malia Terres wrote:
Everything in the expansion has been pretty good except the sound changes.


Here's a scratch and sniff, here's the pool go jump in and amuse yourself.