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Local or no local... Dust 514 decides?
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David Campbell
Gallente Militia War Supplies
#21 - 2012-09-02 19:58:47 UTC
EvEa Deva wrote:
And when the next better FPS comes out and Dust is a graveyard, what options do we have then ?


That's what worries me the most with Dust 514. I'll hate to see EVE broken because DUST bit the ground. I mean, I'm not sure FPS players will keep playing DUST for 5 or 10 years like EVE players do. What then ?
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#22 - 2012-09-02 20:40:18 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

Let me tell you about Counter-Strike.


Telling about how FPS's in general don't evolve at all? Ok.


Tell me that great story of yours again when you reinvigorated a genre which is essentially clicking from a first-person perspective.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#23 - 2012-09-02 20:43:44 UTC
I just want DUST to fail so that CCP consolidates the gameplay and rolls it into Eve as an "alternative gameplay" or even a "True Expansion" and not just a content patch CCP likes to label an expansion cause the change the title name. Keep Eve online within Eve online, none of this idealistic codependency on a secondary playerbase crap.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-09-02 21:26:07 UTC
Blane, if it succeeds, then it wasn't idealistic to begin with... PC version grafted onto EVE sounds awesome though.

Personally, I'm not worried about Dust's longevity. It wouldn't be hard to port to different, and future platforms. Not to mention, the Dust that releases won't compare to the Dust even a year later.

Anyway, on the topic of Dust affecting EVE: I think it's a great idea. There's even mention of changing sov timers. I like this approach. It gives alliances more options without making anything mandatory. That said, I hope low sec gets something out of this, and not just faction warfare. Seedy lowsec corps working with a Dust merc corp sounds appealing.

...and eventually, wormholes...

Occasionally plays sober
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#25 - 2012-09-02 21:32:17 UTC
If I had a nickel for everything CCP said was going to be in the game and then never happened, I would have enough money to play for free for several lifetimes.
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#26 - 2012-09-02 22:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Blane Xero
Jett0 wrote:
Blane, if it succeeds, then it wasn't idealistic to begin with... PC version grafted onto EVE sounds awesome though.

Personally, I'm not worried about Dust's longevity. It wouldn't be hard to port to different, and future platforms. Not to mention, the Dust that releases won't compare to the Dust even a year later.

Anyway, on the topic of Dust affecting EVE: I think it's a great idea. There's even mention of changing sov timers. I like this approach. It gives alliances more options without making anything mandatory. That said, I hope low sec gets something out of this, and not just faction warfare. Seedy lowsec corps working with a Dust merc corp sounds appealing.

...and eventually, wormholes...

It is Idealistic because it makes a whole number of assumptions both about the Longevity of the platform and the playerbase supporting it. The large problem it is going to face is the continued development upkeep to keep it playing friendly with Eve, as well as the eventual PS4 version.

Ignoring development hardships to merely keep it functional, playerbase retention is a massive worry. If you're fuelling this game by having the key point as domino effects through into Eve then the functionality must have meaning for the DUST players. CCP doesn't just want Eve players with PS3's fuelling the game, they want an entirely new playerbase. If the functionality has meaning and can have an adverse or beneficial effect to Eve players, then there has to be a constantly numerous playerbase with a notable quantity of players.

It has to be a steady gain of players, like Eve, which is the complete opposite of what FPS games are designed around marketing wise. FPS players [self included] rarely latch onto a game and play it till death [UT99, CS:S and TF2 are the three which come to mind that have been going " a while "].

Most FPS' like Battlefield, Call of Duty [Which is without doubt where the majority of the market sits] playerbase play a game only for as long as the next game appears. Sure some people stick to an older one, but that isn't a good market to throw a game into in which you want a long and lasting amount of dev time sunk into.

I have slammed DUST almost since day 1. I hate the ideas behind it because it has stolen a lot of potential from Eve for the sake of a FPSMMO that I will be surprised if it lasts longer than the devtime sunk into it, before some way to salvage the code is needed due to a playerbase shortage.

It's an unappealing idea launching on an unappealing platform with unappealing tie-ins to a game I used to love and stare into its development with fascination and child-like eyes of wonder. It's a parasite in my eyes and nothing less, and yes, I feel that strongly opposed to it.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.
Solaine Talvanis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-09-02 22:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Solaine Talvanis
Blane Xero wrote:
It has to be a steady gain of players, like Eve, which is the complete opposite of what FPS games are designed around marketing wise.

Most FPS' like Battlefield, Call of Duty [Which is without doubt where the majority of the market sits] playerbase play a game only for as long as the next game appears.

I have slammed DUST almost since day 1. I hate the ideas behind it because it has stolen a lot of potential from Eve for the sake of a FPSMMO that I will be surprised if it lasts longer than the devtime sunk into it, before some way to salvage the code is needed due to a playerbase shortage.


Though I kind of agree with alot of the points you're making, I also recognise that CCP is a company first..
I think that if we can think about these possible risks they surely have by now.. 'cause to them it's not only about a game they love to play but about their livelyhood as well..

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they released Dust on consoles first for exactly the reasons you stated.. they are gonna make money on it, lot's of FPS players will probably play for at least a while..
I suspect that when they get bored with it Dust will get ported to PC for the more eve involved and lasting community, and that they planned this in advance.. EvE's code seems to be a ***** because they kept building on old code for years.. if they anticipated an eventual move to the PC beforehand however.. Smile
The money they made on the initial console release can be used to inject in their current and future projects.. basically the way most game creators work nowadays.. It's a risk, granted, but hopefull a small and calculated one.

Think of it what you want. I can allready see the "CCP is too ******** to realise blahblah" comments coming, but considering where they came from with this game I'd say they did better than most of us have sofar..
Either way, DUST is coming... no way around it.. we'll just have to wait and see.. it could be awesome.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-09-02 22:54:01 UTC
ok ok i know. now i hope ccp can pull it off but let me say this in every forum yes even in this forum people destroying the game just because the graphics is bad and the performence for hitting or aiming is horreble. Yah before you shout its beta i know. but thats what happens now. Just saying.
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#29 - 2012-09-02 23:01:24 UTC
Solaine Talvanis wrote:
Blane Xero wrote:
It has to be a steady gain of players, like Eve, which is the complete opposite of what FPS games are designed around marketing wise.

Most FPS' like Battlefield, Call of Duty [Which is without doubt where the majority of the market sits] playerbase play a game only for as long as the next game appears.

I have slammed DUST almost since day 1. I hate the ideas behind it because it has stolen a lot of potential from Eve for the sake of a FPSMMO that I will be surprised if it lasts longer than the devtime sunk into it, before some way to salvage the code is needed due to a playerbase shortage.


Though I kind of agree with alot of the points you're making, I also recognise that CCP is a company first..
I think that if we can think about these possible risks they surely have by now.. 'cause to them it's not only about a game they love to play but about their livelyhood as well..

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they released Dust on consoles first for exactly the reasons you stated.. they are gonna make money on it, lot's of FPS players will probably play for at least a while..
I suspect that when they get bored with it Dust will get ported to PC for the more eve involved and lasting community, and that they planned this in advance.. EvE's code seems to be a ***** because they kept building on old code for years.. if they anticipated an eventual move to the PC beforehand however.. Smile
The money they made on the initial console release can be used to inject in their current and future projects.. basically the way most game creators work nowadays.. It's a risk, granted, but hopefull a small and calculated one.

Think of it what you want. I can allready see the "CCP is too ******** to realise blahblah" comments coming, but considering where they came from with this game I'd say they did better than most of us have sofar..
Either way, DUST is coming... no way around it.. we'll just have to wait and see.. it could be awesome.

I understand CCP approaching it as a product to sell, but there were better paths to take. I find it hard to believe the years of development that have gone into DUST will ever see a merit-able return.

Sure, you could argue that the development on DUST has not been solely for DUST- "Incarna 0.5" is proof enough of this. However, it is undeniable that there have been years dedicated to bringing this game forward, and there will continue to be a large amount of developer time spent sustaining, maintaining and prolonging its life.

The way I see it, it's a large amount of risk for a low reward and the ability to "Do a cool thing" when in comparison to some much safer and more awesome and even "cooler" alternatives. DUST's only unique selling point is that it is an MMO that will be connected to an MMO. That's it.

Now Imagine if they had just sunk that time to turn Eve into something where the whole universe was the MMO known as Eve. Could you imagine how much stronger and how much more interesting Eve would be if they actually widened its scope? DUST like functionality native to Eve would have been a great, and groundbreaking accomplishment. An MMO that isn't just tied to one Genre?

DUST barely scratches the potential it has now hamstrung completely. GG.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-09-02 23:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanaka Aiko
removing local before a battle would hurts the two sides most of the time, not sure one would have a real interest doing that often.

you'll need to make dust hide the local when you know how many red there's, but before they know how many you are...
but any guy on the staging of the other side can tell his side how many guys there's... so well...

this seems more interesting for small roaming fleets, but then there's a need for a whole constellation do be without local for a while, so the attacking side can roam with more efficiency.
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-09-02 23:08:46 UTC
It's certainly possible the whole tie-in concept could lose steam, but consider this: Most FPSs are short-lived because they don't change, and something better comes out. Like EVE, Dust will use expansions to add new gameplay, not new content. Dust doesn't need to be massively successful, just successful enough pay for its continued development. And as much as I hate F2P, I won't deny the profit potential.

One big point I want to make: From the little I can gather, most arguments of FPS players and their short attention spans started specifically at Modern Warfare 2. That was when the "yearly refresh" strategy really came into focus. I don't think it's fair to compare other FPSs to that, as it's really an Activision thing, not a shooter thing (see: Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk). The games you mentioned (good taste, btw Big smile) have yet to be properly succeeded, so although they're no longer profitable, there's a small following for each of them. So much so, that sequels sometimes eventually come out that surpass the original. (TF -> TF2, CS -> CS:S, Tribes: Ascend)

Blane Xero wrote:
DUST's only unique selling point is that it is an MMO that will be connected to an MMO.

I disagree. While it's a major bullet point, it's not the only thing Dust has going for it. Using EVE's skill and module system already gives it more customization than any other FPS I've played, and the fact that death means losing equipment is going to make for some interesting situations. If this concept forces the players to band together and actually play as a team, it will be one of the few FPSs to do so.

As long as Dust has good gameplay fundamentals, gets meaningful expansions, and keeps up with the times, I don't see how it's possible for it to fail spectacularly. At the very worst, I see console Dust dying in a few years, and the eventual PC version keeping a small, dedicating following alongside EVE.

All this said, I'm not saying you won't be right, but why would you want it to fail?

Occasionally plays sober
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-09-02 23:10:29 UTC
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
removing local before a battle would hurts the two sides most of the time, not sure one would have a real interest doing that often.

The way I see it, you send your Dust mercs to disable local chat, then you launch your fleet in secrecy.

Occasionally plays sober
Solaine Talvanis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-09-02 23:19:21 UTC
Blane Xero wrote:
I understand CCP approaching it as a product to sell, but there were better paths to take. I find it hard to believe the years of development that have gone into DUST will ever see a merit-able return.

However, it is undeniable that there have been years dedicated to bringing this game forward, and there will continue to be a large amount of developer time spent sustaining, maintaining and prolonging its life.

Now Imagine if they had just sunk that time to turn Eve into something where the whole universe was the MMO known as Eve. Could you imagine how much stronger and how much more interesting Eve would be if they actually widened its scope? DUST like functionality native to Eve would have been a great, and groundbreaking accomplishment. An MMO that isn't just tied to one Genre?

DUST barely scratches the potential it has now hamstrung completely. GG.


And again, I would agree with you were it not for one point you didn't get, or I failed to get across.

I believe they intend (or at least planned for the possibility) for DUST to become a part of PC EvE eventually.. When/if the console players are done with it.
Adding to the EvE universe you described. Therefore widening their scope. Expanding their possible EvE community.
Honestly, they built a very succesfull MMO from the ground up. From nothing.
I'm not arrogant enough/ have enough hope in humanity to believe that if we people (not from or interacting with the industry) can think of all these possible risks, CCP hasn't.

Blane Xero wrote:
The way I see it, it's a large amount of risk for a low reward and the ability to "Do a cool thing" when in comparison to some much safer and more awesome and even "cooler" alternatives. DUST's only unique selling point is that it is an MMO that will be connected to an MMO. That's it.


Haven't played the beta yet, but from what I know sofar I have to disagree with you on this one.
I love shooters but I get bored with em pretty quickly because outside of getting an insane K/D ratio, there's is no lasting goal to achieve in em.
BF, CoD, etc etc all revolve around 1 map and 1 match.. you win or you lose. Reset. (switch teams) Play again.
There is no persisting bonus for having decimated the opposing team(s) for weeks on end. No strategic ground gained. No equipment advantage. (tanks, airstrikes, ammo, etc.) Dust could change all this. I'll let you fill in the blanks.

Also.. In most shooters today, I hate the fact that it's arcade style gaming. Spawn at the base, see a tank, use it as cheap transportation, dumb moves, strategical suicide, quick kills. I don't care what happens to it, there'll be a brand new one there in about 2 minutes. In DUST everything, even your clone, will have value. Ofcourse there will be insanely rich alliances spamming tanks and god knows what cause they have the ISK to do so.
I hope however, that the fact that there's value to everything will encourage teamplay and actual strategic movement..

Kind of the comparison people make between WoW and EvE pvp. In WoW you respawn, in EvE you hurt. (at least a little.)
I hope DUST will change alot of things, but like I said, we'll have to wait and see.
Adalun Dey
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-09-02 23:37:18 UTC
Blane Xero wrote:
I just want DUST to fail so that CCP consolidates the gameplay and rolls it into Eve as an "alternative gameplay" or even a "True Expansion" and not just a content patch CCP likes to label an expansion cause the change the title name. Keep Eve online within Eve online, none of this idealistic codependency on a secondary playerbase crap.

If you consider the not so unthinkable probability that CCP might have invested more money into the development of Dust 514 than it makes on EVE, and as such has taken out a loan it can't possibly pay back by virtue of the latter alone, you might want to rethink your hopes of the former failing as it might very well threaten the continued existence of our dear spaceship MMO.

[i]" Take my love, take my land, take me where I can not stand, I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. "[/i]
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-09-02 23:39:02 UTC
All I have to say, is this discussion just pushed me over the edge and I downloaded Dust...

James315 for CSM 8!
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#36 - 2012-09-02 23:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Blane Xero
Solaine Talvanis wrote:
Blane Xero wrote:
I understand CCP approaching it as a product to sell, but there were better paths to take. I find it hard to believe the years of development that have gone into DUST will ever see a merit-able return.

However, it is undeniable that there have been years dedicated to bringing this game forward, and there will continue to be a large amount of developer time spent sustaining, maintaining and prolonging its life.

Now Imagine if they had just sunk that time to turn Eve into something where the whole universe was the MMO known as Eve. Could you imagine how much stronger and how much more interesting Eve would be if they actually widened its scope? DUST like functionality native to Eve would have been a great, and groundbreaking accomplishment. An MMO that isn't just tied to one Genre?

DUST barely scratches the potential it has now hamstrung completely. GG.


And again, I would agree with you were it not for one point you didn't get, or I failed to get across.


Don't worry, I get it and you didn't fail to put any point across, I just have my beliefs and opinions and so on, and I oppose DUST. It's that simple. Smile

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.
Mal Ishos
Steecey's Industries
#37 - 2012-09-03 01:25:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
My biggest problem with that statement is
" they should provide tools for big alliances to fix specific problems."

Another thing aimed for big alliances and not the little guy.


You mean, there are advantages to making friends in an MMO?

Shocked
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-09-03 01:31:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
My biggest problem with that statement is
" they should provide tools for big alliances to fix specific problems."

Another thing aimed for big alliances and not the little guy.

Maybe DUSTers could capture a planetary mining phase inverter and increase mining yield by 3% in the system
or perhaps they could plant a CONCORD supplemental alertness beacon which decreases CONCORD response by 1.2 seconds

and other riveting stuff
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-09-03 01:56:41 UTC
So when people complain about suicide ganks, we will then say "Dust is that way ---->"?

Occasionally plays sober
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-09-03 02:08:20 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
So when people complain about suicide ganks, we will then say "Dust is that way ---->"?


lol...I don't think gank victims are dust's target audience...but we can give it a try...

James315 for CSM 8!