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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#161 - 2012-08-15 18:37:05 UTC
let's make eve Just Like Real Life

in real life, when seconds count, the police are minutes away

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#162 - 2012-08-15 18:37:49 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Equus wrote:
To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.

The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.

So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.

There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.


I can agree with the spirit of this post. (Sure, there's room for abuse, but the basic idea is right, methinks)

People running missions together, or mining together, or cooperating like good little MMO players should be able to defend eachother.

Having system-wide free for all on a thief's *** is overkill.


I could get on board with it being grid wide. Not sure how they could work this though. Might be as easy as making it follow the old DD scripts as I believe they hit grid wide. This would make ganking freighters Hard but not impossible to get away with also. So +1 on this idea
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-08-15 18:41:00 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Oh, the last time i checked bombers did not have a targeting delay after decloak.


Torps against frigate...
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-08-15 18:41:24 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro. of the universe.


Do you know that cloaks mess up your targeting? Even force recons have targeting delay -> pirate warps away.
If miner warps off and returns in pvp ship pirate usually warps away if he see combat ship in d-scan and switches to ship that can kill [insert ship here].

Lol, and I'm not worried about losing something if can flipper is around. I like to waste their time. I'm quite good at it.


Well, those were just a couple examples of how to deal with pirates. There's plenty of options. But I do have to clarify one thing...

You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.

A short while later, you say that if the miner can force the pirate to warp off, then the pirate still wins? (?!)

So no matter what, miners are losers? I would think that shoving a bully off your stack of ore could count as a "success"...
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#165 - 2012-08-15 18:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Equus wrote:
To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.

The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.

So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.

There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.


You're so wrong it's not even funny. There's ofcourse different kinds of can flippers so I can only speak for my (former) self.

- I WANT you to have multiple corp members in local, preferably all over 6 months old, the older the better as that means they'll fly bigger and more expensive ships and get more cocky
- I WANT you to have "security" in the belt, generally that means I'll get shot at
- I don't CARE for your hauler or retriever kill, they mean nothing to me as they have no value and thus can't be ransomed
- I WANT you to come back in something good because I know full well that, being a miner, you'll be **** at using it and that means easy target worth a lot of isk, resulting is nice ransoms
- there's many ways miners can avoid being can flipped, even when they're jetcanning! All it takes is some basic understanding of the game mechanics, some ingenuity and some ******* EFFORT. It happen fairly often that I just can't even GET the jet can or can't entice the previous owner to do something stupid, when that happens I wish him good luck and go my merry way to find someone who IS a moron and will do moronic dumb ****
- there's many ways a corp can protect themselves after being can flipped and kill the can flipper in a fight. (hint, most of the dumb carebears fly caldari, it's not very difficult to put a fitted blackbird in your Orca now is it)


I have no problem in stating that it's easy kills most of the time because it is but then again, gatecampers also want easy kills, blobbers in 0.0 also want easy kills and pirates in low sec, guess what... they want easy kills. The difference is that miners/bears whine about how unfair it is and how CCP should do something about it, while people who actually understand EVE point at the options said miner has and go "you have the tools for the job, it's up to you to make it happen".
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#166 - 2012-08-15 18:45:32 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
Oh, the last time i checked bombers did not have a targeting delay after decloak.


Torps against frigate...


We were not talking about effectivity.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-08-15 18:47:01 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.


- Miner warps to station
- Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav
- Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan
- Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu

You probably already know how that will continue.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#168 - 2012-08-15 18:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Equus wrote:
To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.

The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.

So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.

There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.

I always wait for them to reship, as does every can flipper I have seen, ever.

I think the on grid idea could be difficult to implement and isn't needed (I think the current system is mostly fine), but I would not be opposed to it on the basis of the flagging mechanic. It is far superior to the proposed suspect mechanic.

EDIT: +1 for Vilnius Zar's post
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-08-15 18:49:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.


- Miner warps to station
- Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav
- Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan
- Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu

You probably already know how that will continue.

So a miner having to run back to a better combat ship is unacceptable, but fair.

But if the pirate has to do it, then that's unfair?
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#170 - 2012-08-15 18:49:09 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Equus wrote:
To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.

The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.

So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.

There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.


You're so wrong it's not even funny. There's ofcourse different kinds of can flippers so I can only speak for my (former) self.

- I WANT you to have multiple corp members in local, preferably all over 6 months old, the older the better as that means they'll fly bigger and more expensive ships and get more cocky
- I WANT you to have "security" in the belt, generally that means I'll get shot at
- I don't CARE for your hauler or retriever kill, they mean nothing to me as they have no value and thus can't be ransomed
- I WANT you to come back in something good because I know full well that, being a miner, you'll be **** at using it and that means easy target worth a lot of isk, resulting is nice ransoms
- there's many ways miners can avoid being can flipped, even when they're jetcanning! All it takes is some basic understanding of the game mechanics, some ingenuity and some ******* EFFORT. It happen fairly often that I just can't even GET the jet can or can't entice the previous owner to do something stupid, when that happens I wish him good luck and go my merry way to find someone who IS a moron and will do moronic dumb ****
- there's many ways a corp can protect themselves after being can flipped and kill the can flipper in a fight. (hint, most of the dumb carebears fly caldari, it's not very difficult to put a fitted blackbird in your Orca now is it)


I have no problem in stating that it's easy kills most of the time because it is but then again, gatecampers also want easy kills, blobbers in 0.0 also want easy kills and pirates in low sec, guess what... they want easy kills. The difference is that miners/bears whine about how unfair it is and how CCP should do something about it, while people who actually understand EVE point at the options said miner has and go "you have the tools for the job, it's up to you to make it happen".


Quoted for frickin truth! When i did canflips then i usually hoped for something expensive and a fight like 1 against 5! Twisted

You hit the nail on the head... its a like a 15 minute private war against another corp (if they decide to participate) and with that a playground for smallscale pvp.


Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-08-15 18:50:01 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.


- Miner warps to station
- Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav
- Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan
- Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu

You probably already know how that will continue.

So a miner having to run back to a better combat ship is unacceptable, but fair.

But if the pirate has to do it, then that's unfair?


Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu?
Alara IonStorm
#172 - 2012-08-15 18:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.


- Miner warps to station
- Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav
- Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan
- Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu

You probably already know how that will continue.

Miner is smart enough not to engage Tengu realizing that the thief out guns him. If lacking adequate Corp support Miner accepts that in this instance he has been outgunned and doesn't jettison his valuables until known thief leaves system. Adds thief to watch list for further notice.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#173 - 2012-08-15 18:54:52 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.


- Miner warps to station
- Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav
- Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan
- Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu

You probably already know how that will continue.

Miner is smart enough not to engage Tengu realizing that the thief out guns him. If lacking adequate Corp support Miner accepts that in this instance he has been outgunned and doesn't jettison his valuables until known thief leaves system. Adds thief to watch list for further notice.


Win!
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#174 - 2012-08-15 18:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu?


If that miner who reshipped into his caracal engaged his brain he warped in at 50km or so, giving him enough time to gtfo once he realised that the can flipper also reshipped. Also, who says that miner doesn't come back in a decent tanked ship like a drake, then entices the can flipper to a short range brawl and drops scram + 2 webs on him and then his corp members, flying 2 blackbirds (any 2 weeks newbie can fly them would he want to) keep him from doing any damage. Just because YOU don't see any solutions doesn't mean there AREN'T any.

Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know.
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-08-15 18:55:24 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu?


I never said anything like that. What I said was more like "If a miner can run to station and bring back a better combat ship, why shouldn't the pirate be able to, also?".

If the miner finds himself completely outgunned, then he'll have to back down, and be more careful where he jettisons his valuable ore, next time.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-08-15 19:01:49 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know.


Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different?
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2012-08-15 19:03:47 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know.


Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different?


Well... then why would miners be any different?
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-08-15 19:05:32 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



just because you weren't a threat to him doesn't mean there wasn't any threat to him. P

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#179 - 2012-08-15 19:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know.


Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different?


Because some of them actually understand game mechanics, scenarios and... the game, unlike you it seems. The reason is fairly simple: if I can flip you and you're in an actual corp with actual active people in it and you cry for help in corp channel there's always "that one guy", he flies fancy stuff... you know the type, faction fetish to the point he even fitted Caldari Navy shoe laces and he invariably flies a CNR/Golem/Rattler/Navy Domi that, because he's a fcking moron, is overtanked to the extreme and, because he is lazy, perma tanks. He'll come over to "help you", it may take 20-30 minutes for him to get there (that means I somehow need to be able to get myself aggressed again) but there's a big fat chance he'll be running kinetic resists and he'll tank 800+ on it, so a Tengu would be fairly crappy for the job.

THAT'S why people who aren't dumb don't use tengus for this.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-08-15 19:12:53 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Well... then why would miners be any different?


Smart miner wouldn't undock in Tengu...

Pirate in Tengu can always tank miner in Tengu even with equal skills.