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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1101 - 2011-10-11 13:40:51 UTC
Misanth wrote:
EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives.

And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while.

If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1102 - 2011-10-11 13:40:57 UTC
CCP Tallest likes to mock us...

The fighter change solved so many issues in one go, that it was too good for CCP to put on TQ. I said it when I first saw it, and it turned out to be true...

Why CCP, why can't you give us the good stuff that you yourself suggest? Is this some kind of cruel game you play internally at CCP?

Nyan
Sarahs Sister
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1103 - 2011-10-11 13:41:22 UTC
These ideas are way to harsh on SupperC you have made them into a very specific ship buy taking away their versatility so you should make them dock-able and reduce the manufacturing cost otherwise the nerf out ways the cost and risk. Because you have a character stuck in a ship all the time waiting for the off chance they can go to battle, but more then likely wont happen and you cant even rat in them so might as well dock them up until a time they are needed.

My ideas are if you keep the proposed changes:

1. Make SuperC dock-able
2. Reduce the number of parts needed to make them
3. Increase the Hit Points on a Titan
4. Increase the damage of the DD weapon

My ideas if you decide to re-think this proposal:

1. Give SuperC all there drone back
2. Reduce there EHP (same as what you have now)
3. Make it so you cant hit anything apart from capitals with Fighters and FB
4. Reduce the amount of drone that can be deployed to 10 but still 20 for fighters

Sarah
Evil Celeste
#1104 - 2011-10-11 13:41:30 UTC
Ratnose Banker wrote:
Make the siege module able to have a script fitted which makes it do less dps in siege but higher tracking. Would be great imo.


Yeah, especially battleship pilots would appreciate that.Roll
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1105 - 2011-10-11 13:41:50 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1106 - 2011-10-11 13:42:12 UTC
Leon Razor wrote:
Well 16 hours and 42 pages later it's nice to see the community arguing (constructively?) over a FiS feature this time. I know something like this has been said at least once here, but I think they need to hear it again just in case they haven't gotten it yet.

CCP:

  1. Read this entire thread, there are reasonable suggestions here from both sides
  2. Make some adjustments
  3. Make another blog about it
  4. Read another 40+ page thread
  5. Maybe repeat this process a few times
  6. Then post a final list of balance changes well before the patch day
  7. Be prepared to make adjustments before the next big expansion

If you are really serious about listening to your player base and regaining their trust, you are going to need lots of two way communication. I know you gather a lot of info before deciding on changes like these, but you need to continue that process up to and after release. Most people feel like balance changes are simple database value updates that are easy to do, so since it's relatively quick to implement them, spend the extra time talking and listening to us, and don't wait 18 months to react.

Aside from the harsh vs effective (SC vs blob) arguments, a general issue people on both sides seem to have with these changes is that they are too flat, e.g.

  • Overall HP -20% VS a variable HP nerf that considers the unique properties of each ship
  • Removing all drones VS something like a smaller drone bay for non-fighters (like you did with the separate fuel cargo bays)


Very nice put, CCP's main fault the last five years has been in the communication department.
Your suggestion would go a long way towards making this game alot better.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#1107 - 2011-10-11 13:43:20 UTC
Really liking these changes, but I do have to ask: what niché do you see fighters filling after this nerf exactly? Seems a bit heavy handed in this case.

Also please let the Veldnought keep the drones Big smile
Evil Celeste
#1108 - 2011-10-11 13:43:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Tippia wrote:
For one, no, that is not what he intends.
False. Its exactly what i want.
Kill a SC in a single Drake? Because that's what he claims that you want…


Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts.
Furb Killer
#1109 - 2011-10-11 13:44:04 UTC
Liranan wrote:

This is the problem with the game, people who've never flown a ship whine so much that devs listen to them.

Now, why don't you fly a dread a few times and watch those lovely guns miss a pos and then tell us your maths. You ever seen a Sieged Moros barely hit an iHub? No? Those guns barely track targets the size of a star, let alone a moving target

But maths don't lie! Cry

I have a Moros, I have sieged it while still moving at zero from an ihub. I hit it fine, think I was even top damage dealer.

But really eve is math. Sure you need to properly apply it, but things like missing POS's due to tracking are things you can really easy put in the tracking formula (or let EFT do it for you), and you simply get the truth back. They hit for full damage, their tracking is sufficient. What are you saying then? The tracking formula is wrong? Eve = math, deal with it.
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1110 - 2011-10-11 13:44:09 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Misanth wrote:
EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives.

And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while.

If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers.



Goons having no skills. They need 500+ to win fights. Basic knowledge, CSM = GOONS = WIN only way a goon wins.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1111 - 2011-10-11 13:44:36 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts.
That's something rather different than what he suggests, though…
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1112 - 2011-10-11 13:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Kari Kari wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Misanth wrote:
EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives.

And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while.

If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers.



Goons having no skills. They need 500+ to win fights. Basic knowledge, CSM = GOONS = WIN only way a goon wins.


Inappropriate comment removed. Spitfire

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Dray
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1113 - 2011-10-11 13:45:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dray wrote:
Mar Drakar wrote:
That logofski button... they took it away... :D

and then all was silent
This, a thousand times this.

What about gate jump logoffski?
If you can't get some aggro in before he logs, there's no difference (and, of course, when done right, gate logoffski won't let you do that).


You make it sound like a viable tactic, which it shouldn't be, or did I read you wrong? either way it shouldn't be allowed.
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#1114 - 2011-10-11 13:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Relnala
Why can't SCs just have a fighter AND a bomber bay, separately?

I get that you want SCs to be de'fangable, and thats why you reduced the drone bay. But this looks almost TOO easy to defang. Plus, do you know how much of a pita it would be to swap fighters for fighterbombers or vice versa if you decided to swap types before a battle?

You'd either need a pos, a freighter, or a whole bunch of industrial trips.

Maybe an increase in corp hangar or cargo capacity to help compensate (AKA you can carry spares in ship, but not in bay?)

I mean, the last thing that supers need is more pain in the ass for less power.
Kahrnar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1115 - 2011-10-11 13:45:20 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.



So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless
Naradius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1116 - 2011-10-11 13:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Naradius
I will wait to see, if removing drones from Dreads is a good idea...IMHO I feel that you need to improve the tracking bonus for dreads, for this idea to be a "balanced" idea. As I said - I'll wait and see.

Nerfing logoffski - hmmm, great idea in theory, but only in a perfect world. What happens if the server craps out, node dies, genuine internet connection loss? This would be fine, as long as GM's didn't fall back on the "The logs, they show nothing", canned response. I've had the server and node die on me too many times, to believe this idea is viable until CCP managed hardware/software is more reliable What?
The reasons and issues as to why you haven't implemented a log off nerf up till now, are reasons and issues you haven't fully addressed.


Edit: Moros Turret Cap usage rate needs to be changed, if rate of fire bonus is increased.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams
Evil Celeste
#1117 - 2011-10-11 13:46:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts.
That's something rather different than what he suggests, though…


Sorry then for misunderstanding.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1118 - 2011-10-11 13:46:48 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.



So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless

Do you fly a scimitar around and expect to win everything? No? Could that possibly be because it's a ship with a specific role?

Well shucks, imagine that, so is the supercarrier and titan.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1119 - 2011-10-11 13:47:08 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Shadowsword wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.


You can still dps structures as fast as 15 players in battleships, same against other capitals, and can absorb as much damage as 100 battleships. If an enemy fleet of your size and composition choose to focus you first, your sacrifice win the fleet battle.



What? Do you have any idea how fast super caps die in fleet fights?

20 SC focused on my Nyx and I'm down in just under 4 minutes, thats with my hardners on and overheated.

100 man BS gang can down me in about 2 minutes after they neut me completely of any cap and turn off my hardners.


This is the reality, for all those who cry about supercaps having "MASSIVE" EHP and being indestructable. All this talk about supercaps have 100MIL EHP! Really?

X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on.

Hel - 25 million EHP
Wyvren - 32 million EHP
Nyx - 36 million EHP
Aeon - 56 million EHP

Hardners off (it takes 50 BS each with a neut under 60 seconds to drain a supercap to 0 cap)

Hel - 7 million EHP
Wyvren - 9 million EHP
Nyx - 15 million EHP
Aeon - 23 million EHP

Yeah 100 mil EHP super carriers with no weakness that just cant be killed by subcaps! right.....


..and in the 100mil EHP scenario, it's supers vs supers so they still die within minutes. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Furb Killer
#1120 - 2011-10-11 13:47:35 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.



So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless

Well finally one of the whiners understands it. Yes you are supposed to go everywhere you go with a super with a support fleet. Just like you dont use a dread without support (well you can do it for a specific task, but if you run into some opponents you are ******).