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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1121 - 2011-10-11 13:48:37 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Yes, this is exactly the thing most people are against - ability to fend of subcaps. Supercaps should not be able to do it easily, you should have support fleet for that.

If you gave them just "few" drones, with remote ecm bursts, neuts and "few" drones a squad of supercaps could completely clear floor with bunch of hics that are hoping to keep at least 1 or 2 of them.

Thats why Im for completely removing fighters from scs.


lol some people just are clueless. After this patch a single dictor and bunch of frigits will be able to over a period of time able to kill a super/titan, its just insainly stupid this whole new dynamic in the winter patch.


And this is how exactly it should be!
Supercarriers must have their support fleet, if they are going solo, they deserve to die.


Pure stupidness.


No dude, it's quite good actually. A Supercarrier cost lots of billions, you're supposed to use it like an aircraft carrier. That means, you won't go solo, or else a single lone submarine will sink you in the first 20 nautic miles. Or, you could have gone with a support fleet.

But I agree on the fact that supercarrierblobs are the problem, not the supercarriers themselves.

A supercapfleet is a fleet you can't kite, you can't neut it enough (hardeners have 10s cycles, if neuting was really a common tactic vs supercapblobs, they would have capboosters juste to keep hardeners running), you can't speedtank it, you can't triage (logistics will get DDs, commandships aswell, same goes for expensive bhaalgorns and such) and absorb damage from it, you can't tackle it (Except with dictors and hictors, but they will get blown up in the first minute), you can't ECM or damp or web, you can't kill an endless stream of drones, and the lag generated from 40 supercarriers using 20 drones each (800 drones btw) keeps guns from cycling correctly and whatnot. That's why it's broken. The fact that no valid tactic is available to win or at least fight vs that kind of supercapital blob.
Evil Celeste
#1122 - 2011-10-11 13:48:40 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.



So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless


Holy jesus yes! It is that unbelievable? Do you really want to always fly supercarriers and titans and fight only other supercarriers and titans?
Kahrnar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1123 - 2011-10-11 13:49:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.



So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless

Do you fly a scimitar around and expect to win everything? No? Could that possibly be because it's a ship with a specific role?

Well shucks, imagine that, so is the supercarrier and titan.


Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol
Furb Killer
#1124 - 2011-10-11 13:50:14 UTC
Quote:

X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on.

Oooooh I got an idea. Get into the freaking fleet......
Nox Virago
Happy Endings.
#1125 - 2011-10-11 13:51:20 UTC
WarFireV wrote:
Sakaali wrote:
1) Without sentry drones supercarriers are unable to attack POS. Is this intentional then?.


Then use dreads dumby :P


Genius comment <--- (sarcasm). Lemme just dock the ole Nyx in the station and swap out for a dread...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1126 - 2011-10-11 13:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Kahrnar wrote:
Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol

I guess you're not quite comprehending the concept of "a specific role".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Evil Celeste
#1127 - 2011-10-11 13:53:37 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:

Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol


Yeah.Roll
Enjoy carriers popped every 30s by 10 moms.
Liranan
H A V O C Industrial
Fraternity.
#1128 - 2011-10-11 13:54:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Liranan wrote:
You missed the entire Nozh affair? You missed the threadnoughts about how CCP had destroyed an idea everyone, bar a few devs, had wanted? Why don't you go back and read up on it all, before you start pointing fingers of blame?
For those who don't remember: Nozh was the guy who started messing around with reasonably acceptable numbers in every direction imaginable, and who, when it was pointed out to him that things wouldn't work the way he envisioned them, suggested using TPs on ewar-immune ships…


The ewar immune ships were sieged dreads. Nozh told us to target paint sieged dreads. Pages upon pages of people laughing at him led him to never poast again. Every single alliance in game laughed at Nozh, it was that ridiculous.

Furb Killer wrote:
I have a Moros, I have sieged it while still moving at zero from an ihub. I hit it fine, think I was even top damage dealer.

But really eve is math. Sure you need to properly apply it, but things like missing POS's due to tracking are things you can really easy put in the tracking formula (or let EFT do it for you), and you simply get the truth back. They hit for full damage, their tracking is sufficient. What are you saying then? The tracking formula is wrong? Eve = math, deal with it.


Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.

Ignorance is bliss.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zeitgeistmovie?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/23/Lio3n66bwOo This shit's got to go - Jacque Fresco
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#1129 - 2011-10-11 13:54:27 UTC
Hi CCP,

The best way it's to remove completly the fighter to sc. Only fighterbomber.

If you have 20 nyx on the field without support. You have again 200 fighters on the field and with 200 fighters it's impossible to tackle with hid.

Don't forget that the supercarrier can still cap transfert and cap remote. If you have 20 nyx how many bhaalgorn do you need to cut the RR of 20 nyx. More then 100 ...

I have often see more then 20 nyx and the field but i have never see 10 bhaalgorn on the field ...

Remove completly the fighter from supercarrier and the subcap have some chance to kill some massive blob of super without support
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1130 - 2011-10-11 13:55:35 UTC
Giggles.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#1131 - 2011-10-11 13:55:47 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Karim alRashid wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:

fighters are an anti bs drone.


OK, they may be now, but tell me why they SHOULD continue to be so?

Quote:
other wise a carrier has no defence against a bs.


Why heavy and sentry drones cannot be used by carriers against BS?


heavys and sentrys do minimal damage against a bs. where as fighters will damage a bs.


Not at all, they can do 900+ dps, which is pretty good for a damage to a ship a class lower. This damage is
almost TWICE the damage a bonused drone BS can do to another BS.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Evil Celeste
#1132 - 2011-10-11 13:58:10 UTC
Liranan wrote:

Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.


Holy jesus this guy is clueless... go get some clue about tracking mechanics.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1133 - 2011-10-11 13:58:18 UTC
Kahrnar wrote:
a ship with NO offence is useless...lol


What about the guardian then? Or any Cov-ops for that matter?

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Furb Killer
#1134 - 2011-10-11 13:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Furb Killer
Liranan wrote:

Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.

Ignorance is bliss.

Yes, while you ignore those wrecking hits. That some shots barely hit doesnt mean you do less than your max DPS. You also get them when you are not moving at all and shooting that POS or ihub.

But most importantly question remains: are you really telling me that eve is not simply based on math? Of course you have to properly apply it, you cannot say that a thorax has better dps and ehp than a cyna, so it will beat a cyna. But things like will my dread hit the POS or not are simply putting it in a well known tracking formula and observe the result.


EDIT: btw you do realise if you are not moving yourself and the POS generally also isnt very fast, tracking doesnt play a role, right?
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1135 - 2011-10-11 13:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
i have a question for CCP to answer

as i like to build my own capital ships wth the new changes to capitals / supercapitals (ie loss of drone bays/hp reductions) will the build cost of capitals / supers be reduced?

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#1136 - 2011-10-11 14:00:54 UTC
It seems to me that CCP intends for caps and super caps to be anti-capital ships and or structure grinders. Which is well and fine if that role was truly niche for them but as I see things now that isn’t the case. There seems to be no requirement to field caps as things stand now and in fact I can now see them as a liability in some cases.

For example if a 100 man subcap fleet fought a mix of say 70 subcaps with 30 caps would the mix fleet be at a disadvantage in light of these changes to caps? If the 30 caps are no threat to the sub caps faced against them, then that means the battle now depends mostly on the 70 subcaps which are outnumbered and hindered in mobility by being tied to the cap fleet they are defending

Correct me if I am wrong in that assumption but that is how it looks to me. I agree that caps should not be fielded without support . But other than seeing them having the ability to shave off time to reinforce a structure, I am not seeing the advantage of them. Especially if a pure subcap fleets can engage mixed cap fleets more efficiently and safely than having your own caps in to the mix if they are equal in numbers?
Ztrain
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#1137 - 2011-10-11 14:02:55 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
It will be interesting to see how these changes play out, and I look forward to many more balancing devblogs in the future.


Don't know don't care. After reading the cap ship nurf blog I have reacquired 8.7 gig of HD space for more useful purposes. I remember when Supers were fun, then they took away the end game. See you all in the new Star Wars.

Z
DJB16
DJB Alpha
#1138 - 2011-10-11 14:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: DJB16
i think the change in the super carrier bay size is abit wierd
in my mind it only makes sense if ur reducing the number of deplyable fighters/bombers to 15 (with no drone links) otherwize

why spend 15+billion on a ship that can have all its dps destroy with no backups?

a dominix can carry 3 flights of ogres (granted it only goes around with 2 flights of heavys/sentrys but still its an extra full flight of drones it should scale up properly)

also this balancing doesnt address the issue with titans GUNS the GUNS can be REMOTELY BOOSTED via tracking links so they CAN hit moving battleships at less than 50km
if it was at 150km i wouldnt care but at 50km thats way imbalanced

btw i can fly the moros and i can tell u that bonus change to ROF is just gonna bunk the thing more than it is already due to cap use!
Sarahs Sister
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1139 - 2011-10-11 14:04:11 UTC
Oh and in addition to my other post to allow Supers to dock you could bring out a station upgrade that is required to dock supers. That can cost a lot of ISK and time/effort.

On a totally selfish point and aesthetic point of view, please increase the size of the Wyvern it is pathetically small compared to the other SuperC and the Dreads.

Sarah
Evil Celeste
#1140 - 2011-10-11 14:06:00 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:

For example if a 100 man subcap fleet fought a mix of say 70 subcaps with 30 caps would the mix fleet be at a disadvantage in light of these changes to caps?


30 caps means alot of remote repair, so unless opposing fleet is able to alpha through their buffer, it is in big disadvantage.