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More FW changes on SiSi

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Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#701 - 2012-05-15 01:30:16 UTC
LOL at all the rage towards Hans. Just remember CSM dont make decisions, its upto CCP to actually to listen to them...

I say lets see what happens post 22nd... For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Arianna Satellizer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#702 - 2012-05-15 01:58:20 UTC
Why does always CCP project and design everything in Eve as a preparation to null sec... WHY!!!!
And they said this was a sandbox game.... there goes my ENDGAME low sec experience.
Tnx for ruining it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#703 - 2012-05-15 02:13:59 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. Ugh

I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

I threw up a bit around 4:15.



Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people.

A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. .



Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not “hans's expansion.” In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this.


When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting.

Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics.

The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic.
What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers?
The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in.
I don’t think this is hans’s fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#704 - 2012-05-15 03:08:44 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Bingo. No real mystery about that..

what an odd way of designing a game, basing major contentious balance decisions on wishful thinking/hope rather than applying thought/common sense.
House M.D. makes for an awesome TV show, endangering the life of patients (and sometimes outright killing them) in the hope of finding a 'cure' while praying that should it go sideways it will be possible to resuscitate .. but in game design? .. Hahahahahahaha .. guess all my loathing for the flip-flopper called Soundwave is justified

1. One side collapses.
Remaining pilots scratch dirt to find scrubs for sustenance.
Null blob comes to the rescue, farms the crap out of it and leaves post haste (ie. like every major western hemisphere military intervention/"help" the last 40 years). Only interest is ISK/LP and nothing else.
Side collapses, the remaining pilots now start scratching the dirt for scrubs on a full stomach and get to pray for the next wave of big spender "foreigners" *Yay*.

2. Full-on idiocy turns out to be ... surprise ... Idiocy.
FW is effectively killed off as more than half of all active/involved corps leave for pastures green (no one likes grinds).
By the time the metrics irrefutably show that the patient is indeed no longer with us and Soundwave rummages around his dirty sock drawer for the Hail Mary, null has had its third and final pass making it 'acceptable', containing less grinds, more pew and can be profitable with a bit of work.
If by random chance and blind luck the Hail Mary works and FW is actually fixed (18 months!) no one joins up as that which most joined up for to get away from in the first place was fixed earlier (Null).

@Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion.
@CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake.
Lord Azeroth
Perkone
Caldari State
#705 - 2012-05-15 03:20:53 UTC
The pro-blob advocates, be careful what you wish for, cause you may not like the result even if you are on the winning side today.............. just saying.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#706 - 2012-05-15 03:54:56 UTC
I don't think faction war will die. I just think it won't be kept alive from the same people. Now the people who keep it alive are people who play to have lots of interesting and quality pvp. After inferno it will be kept alive by people who like to blob and farm, blob and farm.



In other words people who like sov null sec will like these changes. there of course is nothing wrong with liking sov null sec. But why make faction war more of the same?




Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Bingo. No real mystery about that..

what an odd way of designing a game, basing major contentious balance decisions on wishful thinking/hope rather than applying thought/common sense.
House M.D. makes for an awesome TV show, endangering the life of patients (and sometimes outright killing them) in the hope of finding a 'cure' while praying that should it go sideways it will be possible to resuscitate .. but in game design? .. Hahahahahahaha .. guess all my loathing for the flip-flopper called Soundwave is justified

1. One side collapses.
Remaining pilots scratch dirt to find scrubs for sustenance.
Null blob comes to the rescue, farms the crap out of it and leaves post haste (ie. like every major western hemisphere military intervention/"help" the last 40 years). Only interest is ISK/LP and nothing else.
Side collapses, the remaining pilots now start scratching the dirt for scrubs on a full stomach and get to pray for the next wave of big spender "foreigners" *Yay*.

2. Full-on idiocy turns out to be ... surprise ... Idiocy.
FW is effectively killed off as more than half of all active/involved corps leave for pastures green (no one likes grinds).
By the time the metrics irrefutably show that the patient is indeed no longer with us and Soundwave rummages around his dirty sock drawer for the Hail Mary, null has had its third and final pass making it 'acceptable', containing less grinds, more pew and can be profitable with a bit of work.
If by random chance and blind luck the Hail Mary works and FW is actually fixed (18 months!) no one joins up as that which most joined up for to get away from in the first place was fixed earlier (Null).

@Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion.
@CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#707 - 2012-05-15 05:14:56 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
LOL at all the rage towards Hans. Just remember CSM dont make decisions, its upto CCP to actually to listen to them...

I say lets see what happens post 22nd... For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!!



Why? to loose ships in blobery idiocy? Who runs more numbers wins?

Sorry no need to play the nobrainer.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#708 - 2012-05-15 05:46:05 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!!


No, there wont be.

Fortunately i'm all set now for future anyways and moved all my assets out from conquerable low-sec and have scouted a nice wormhole to jump into when FW becomes the real shite.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#709 - 2012-05-15 05:59:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. Ugh

I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

I threw up a bit around 4:15.



Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people.

A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. .



Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not “hans's expansion.” In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this.


When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting.

Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics.

The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic.
What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers?
The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in.
I don’t think this is hans’s fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.


Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online.

And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.

That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Grimfang Wyrmspawn
Doomheim
#710 - 2012-05-15 06:18:35 UTC
I think our recruiting efforts certainly aren't helped by the storyline CCP gifted the faction.

"Religious zealot slavers? Who wouldn't want to join them?"
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#711 - 2012-05-15 06:32:24 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:

That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.


Not but in the past it was possible for any side to fail and then always come back over time. These new mechanics will create a situation where it becomes very improbable that the losing side we have the ability to ever come back.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#712 - 2012-05-15 06:39:58 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Cearain wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. Ugh

I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

I threw up a bit around 4:15.



Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people.

A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. .



Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not “hans's expansion.” In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this.


When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting.

Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics.

The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic.
What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers?
The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in.
I don’t think this is hans’s fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.


Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online.

And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.

That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.
i am afraid this time u r not right ... Because we will get stuck with the state of blobery.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#713 - 2012-05-15 06:45:20 UTC
As Bob Marley sang: Everythings gonna be alright.

So stop crying wimminz and wait see how it all plays out.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#714 - 2012-05-15 06:46:00 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.


Because people leave enviroment where they get four times as much LP for same effort as opposition for more challenging enviroment because ultimately people want pvp and not isk farming --- CCP's train of thought.

If you believe that, I might have several decent bridges to sell...
Sui'Djin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#715 - 2012-05-15 07:02:02 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in.



Bingo. No real mystery about that.

And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen.

1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.



Sad story, but this is not your fault Hans. All those ignorants starting flame wars to you did obviously not listen to you from the very beginning. I imagine this design decision must be VERY frustrating for you, to say the least.

I don't want to be CCP Soundwave's guinea pig. I want to have the lowsec fightclub. I don't mind fighting against the odds, as long as there is a fair chance. But there obviously isn't.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#716 - 2012-05-15 07:38:47 UTC
It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.

my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.

I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.

I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.

Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.

Untill later FW Friends and Enemies
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#717 - 2012-05-15 07:40:46 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.

my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.

I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.

I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.

Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.

Untill later FW Friends and Enemies



I am afraid new people are not comming ... only attention of some "roll over them for lulz" alliance.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#718 - 2012-05-15 07:59:12 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.


Because people leave enviroment where they get four times as much LP for same effort as opposition for more challenging enviroment because ultimately people want pvp and not isk farming --- CCP's train of thought.

If you believe that, I might have several decent bridges to sell...




Hmm, you have a point. I don't think the state of the warzone (which side is winning or not) should affect the ISK/LP ratio. Makes it about the ISK, not about the action. Hopefully CCP changes this down the road.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#719 - 2012-05-15 08:12:33 UTC
Oh my35+ pages and some times 22 seconds between post. Well I would like to inject a few things in to the debate that will not get to play out on Sisi.


1) The new FW front page, if Iterated(and works) becomes arguably the most powerful Intel tool in game. that's a huge change in how we will play, the unwashed masses will start showing up weather us organised groups like it or not. As every one gets to know were the action is.


2) Is it just me or dose LP rewards for plexing seem to favor roaming around to all the minors you can do offensively in a faction frigg? Minors pay 1k a min in LP VS. 30k average lp per mission but with travel time, how many missions you can easily grab, and ship requirements factored in its got to very close.


3) So there adding in datacores, and raising base price(to be adjusted buy territory control) this is going to throw a huge monkey wrench in to how we spend LP. Its going to have to be centric on our exclusive items or territory control to discount the other things down BUT latter hugely affects non-FW lp people (EX- so Caldari takes all of blackrise, who can sell a Navy raven and turn a profit vs. there buying power)

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#720 - 2012-05-15 09:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Joanna Ramirez
Cearain wrote:
I don’t think this is hans’s fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.


Doubtful. Hans is basicly laughing at feeble Amarr/Caldari now in his blog, somehow living in fantasy land that total number of active pvp pilots (not mission w..res) is anywhere near balanced. And he says "Recruit more you "n00blets". Yeah, great recruiting pitch "Enemy has more numbers and makes 4-16 times for isk than us for same effort, but you want to join us and not them because....because...um....can't figure a reason really".

Distrust breeds hatred, hatred fuels war, and war brings fights. CCP’s expansion is already working as intended = Hans.

Yes, we distrust and hate our enemy (at least everyone should, otherwise why are you playing eve) but that does not mean we are not rational human beings. This in turn causes us to make sure that said sub-human filth (= enemy, like Hans) cannot gank us and get the abovementioned isk boost since there are other options to go along. And we can still keep hating the enemy.

Fortunately I uncovered a massive f...k up in in the upcoming mechanics in SiSi which I will probably use to my advantage until the sun goes out. And i'm not about to report it either since last one only resulted in Caldari getting the blame and Gallente getting away scott-free.