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Incursion changes

First post
Author
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2012-05-14 12:45:15 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Xorv wrote:

You still haven't told us what MMOs you're referring when you said "the best MMOs have PvP AND PvE" Name them! Might help us understand where you're coming from and where you're trying to take us.



I find it funny how you use the "us" vs "me/them".

Like i'm an enemy and everything that's not done by ccp is inherently evil.

Concerning the points i made in the posts above i was referring to the burning crusade expansion for world of warcraft.

I was listing wow among the "best" because of what it was able to do in terms of subscriptions and for what it did right.

One of the things it did right was having a balance between pve content and pvp content.

I'm not talking, sadly i have to repeat myself, about the general pvp mechanics of eve, i'm talking about the fact the in eve pve content is horrible and devs dont give it any thoughts.

What i'm advocating (i'm repeating myself but you seem unable to understand) it's not changing pvp mechanics or how pve interacts with pvp: i'm talking about improving pve.

For example mining is boring, ratting is boring, missioning is boring.
I'm saying: let's make these activities interesting!
It will have no impact on how pvp works, it'll just be better for those people who like to rat/mine/mission/incursions etc.

Hard to understand?

I'll say it again: not changing anything about the interactions between pvp and pve, just making pve better and funnier to do.




Do i have too?

PVP MMO's

Aion
Rift
WOW
WOT


Meh..

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#302 - 2012-05-14 12:57:56 UTC
The Override Transfer Array vanguard sites need some changes. Either reduce the amount of remote repair in this sites or tone the number of spawns down a bit because the initial damage can be a bit high and if some jamming frigs appear and jams the logis it can become a disaster for the entire fleet.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#303 - 2012-05-14 12:57:57 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:

PVP MMO's

WOT


does not compute

I should buy an Ishtar.

Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#304 - 2012-05-14 13:07:13 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:



Do i have too?

PVP MMO's

Aion
Rift
WOW
WOT


Meh..


What's the meaning of that post?
Magicglass
Machinum
The Initiative.
#305 - 2012-05-14 15:40:11 UTC
Waiting times for fleets, I am not sure exactly how to do it but,

If you started a fleet with say 2 ships running scout sites ( eg 5mil per person per site upto 9 people)

Then continue building the fleet until night enough to run vanguards (eg 10-20 pilots 10mil per person per site)

Same again until you can run assaults ( say 20-30 pilots and bigger payout per pilot)

Same again till you can run hq s (say 30-50 pilots and bigger payout per pilot)

Every extra pilot makes the sites quicker to run, the bigger the sites the more isk you will make per site (so maximum isk per hour would be made from 50 pilots running hqs but you will still make some isk while running scout sites and building the fleet)

Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2012-05-14 15:45:29 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:



Do i have too?

PVP MMO's

Aion
Rift
WOW
WOT


Meh..


What's the meaning of that post?



You where on about PVP MMO's with some other dude, He asked for you to List some.

Read the last page :P

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

Marexlovox
Hull Pen
Dock Workers
#307 - 2012-05-16 16:11:41 UTC
Just remove incursions from eve or keep them out of 0.0. That is all.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#308 - 2012-05-16 16:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Marexlovox wrote:
Just remove incursions from eve or keep them out of 0.0. That is all.


Appears that 0.0 is no longer doing (or can't do) the Incursions anymore so they are a roadblock in 0.0 now.
Since the nerf I can not recall a shred of blue on the bar's in lo/null in my journal's influence bars
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Marexlovox
Hull Pen
Dock Workers
#309 - 2012-05-16 17:56:50 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Marexlovox wrote:
Just remove incursions from eve or keep them out of 0.0. That is all.


Appears that 0.0 is no longer doing (or can't do) the Incursions anymore so they are a roadblock in 0.0 now.
Since the nerf I can not recall a shred of blue on the bar's in lo/null in my journal's influence bars


I would rather run sanctums, exploration sites or DED sites. Incursion do not entertain me, it sucks for people in 0.0 who have to pay sov bills and lose Cap Navigation because of this around there own space. I have tried to get fleets up to get rid of them, people are just not interested and move around to different constellations to avoid them. Incursions are a good idea but bad for 0.0.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#310 - 2012-05-16 20:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Marexlovox wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Marexlovox wrote:
Just remove incursions from eve or keep them out of 0.0. That is all.


Appears that 0.0 is no longer doing (or can't do) the Incursions anymore so they are a roadblock in 0.0 now.
Since the nerf I can not recall a shred of blue on the bar's in lo/null in my journal's influence bars


I would rather run sanctums, exploration sites or DED sites. Incursion do not entertain me, it sucks for people in 0.0 who have to pay sov bills and lose Cap Navigation because of this around there own space. I have tried to get fleets up to get rid of them, people are just not interested and move around to different constellations to avoid them. Incursions are a good idea but bad for 0.0.


Interesting now after this effed up nerf peeps in Null sec are asking to remove Incursion from Null into Hi sec instead of the other way around. Goes to show you how much this Escalation change was tested & properly thought out



Unfortunely 'till after Inferno comes out & its inevitable major bugs are ironed out I think we'll be placed on the backburner.
I've been running fleets with what I've been handed but every change brought a tediuos multipler to the sites and working together & forming fleets seems to be losing out to just soloing missions or there has been many unsubs as was suggested in:
http://www.evenews24.com/2012/05/16/jesters-trek-demon-suit/
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#311 - 2012-05-16 20:03:05 UTC
Darth stop bumping these silly threads with your horribly unsubtle rage posts.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

drdxie
#312 - 2012-05-16 20:31:05 UTC
Null bears never said they wanted them.. they just didn't want HS carebears having the opportunity to make easy isk like they can. Running anoms in a carrier is easy isk.. I know.. I do it Twisted

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#313 - 2012-05-16 21:39:08 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Xorv wrote:

You still haven't told us what MMOs you're referring when you said "the best MMOs have PvP AND PvE" Name them! Might help us understand where you're coming from and where you're trying to take us.


[...]
Concerning the points i made in the posts above i was referring to the burning crusade expansion for world of warcraft.

I was listing wow among the "best" because of what it was able to do in terms of subscriptions and for what it did right.

One of the things it did right was having a balance between pve content and pvp content.


Herr Ronin wrote:


Do i have too?

PVP MMO's

Aion
Rift
WOW
WOT


Thanks, your comments explain much...
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#314 - 2012-05-16 22:07:51 UTC
drdxie wrote:
Null bears never said they wanted them.. they just didn't want HS carebears having the opportunity to make easy isk like they can. Running anoms in a carrier is easy isk.. I know.. I do it Twisted

I can make more ISK running incursions in high sec than you can chaining sanctums in null sec, and I don't have to go on CTAs or pay upgrade costs.

I know... I've done both...

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#315 - 2012-05-16 22:10:34 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
Xorv wrote:

You still haven't told us what MMOs you're referring when you said "the best MMOs have PvP AND PvE" Name them! Might help us understand where you're coming from and where you're trying to take us.


[...]
Concerning the points i made in the posts above i was referring to the burning crusade expansion for world of warcraft.

I was listing wow among the "best" because of what it was able to do in terms of subscriptions and for what it did right.

One of the things it did right was having a balance between pve content and pvp content.


Herr Ronin wrote:


Do i have too?

PVP MMO's

Aion
Rift
WOW
WOT


Thanks, your comments explain much...

Lmao, someone listed wow as a PvP game?

WoW is the only MMO I've ever heard of where bots are an issue in PvP. But even if it wasn't terrible PvP, it is still themepark segregated pve/pvp.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

drdxie
#316 - 2012-05-17 02:03:04 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
drdxie wrote:
Null bears never said they wanted them.. they just didn't want HS carebears having the opportunity to make easy isk like they can. Running anoms in a carrier is easy isk.. I know.. I do it Twisted

I can make more ISK running incursions in high sec than you can chaining sanctums in null sec, and I don't have to go on CTAs or pay upgrade costs.

I know... I've done both...



So have I. But since the incursion nerf it is very difficult to get into a good fleet that keeps going. Summer is pretty dead and even ISN has some challenges keeping fleets active. Running anoms in a carrier with 1 toon gets me around 80mil per hour consistently, while Incursions can do it, you wait for fleets and people come and go and the fleet slows down. With that 80mil comes salvage and the chance of DED sites, while Incursions do have LP. Guess it all depends on how smoothly the incursion fleet you in runs.

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#317 - 2012-05-17 10:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Meanwhile incursions community stagnated into couple of hundreds folks with less than 20 capable fleet commanders which could be found easily within 1-2 incursion constellations to be asked about issues with incursions. I guess it will take 20-30 minutes to make a poll about possible changes in incursions, 5 minutes to send personal messages to those 20 FCs (I'm sure they will be more than happy to answer) and a day to gather information from first hands instead of reading 16 pages of mostly useless trolling.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#318 - 2012-05-17 10:13:49 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Meanwhile incursions community stagnated into couple of hundreds folks with less than 20 capable fleet commanders which could be found easily within 1-2 incursion constellations to be asked about issues with incursions. I guess it will take 20-30 minutes to make a poll about possible changes in incursions, 5 minutes to send personal messages to those 20 FCs (I'm sure they will be more than happy to answer) and a day to gather information from first hands instead of reading 16 pages of mostly useless trolling.

The problem with asking incursion FCs about incursion changes is that the replies will inevitably be along the lines of "you went too far, we want more isk/hour".

You cannot expect CCP to rely on a source of information that is so blatantly biased.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Kalicor Lightwind
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2012-05-17 10:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalicor Lightwind
Honestly... Incursions were actually decently fun, and they are what got me to stay with the game after being away for almost two years.

To fix the null/low sec thing: Multiply their current payout times about three. I think people might run vanguards in low if they paid out 45mil... I'd certainly fit out a low sec maelstrom right now to do them. If I lose a ship every twenty sites (due to pvp, or too much alpha, whatever), I would still be making quite a decent amount of money. If we want to talk about risk versus reward: there ya go. If you could get an alpha rofl fleet going and do 6 minute sites, that would be 450mil ISK an hour, at the risk of losing your multi billion ISK ships to do so.

I think people might just do it for that much money, plus they can't get hotdropped by capitals while doing it. If that's too much, make go to about 2x payout. My point is when you have to invest more than a throwaway amount of money into something it has to pay enough to make up for the risk. Turning on that PvP enabled flag in which death means losing many, many hours worth of work? I think people are a bit masochistic to assume that anything but the sweetest of bread crumbs would encourage that. Certainly not for a few extra million per site, when the risk is to lose three hundred of those millions (or far more with a shiny ship). I think it would be more reasonable to say that 10-12minutes would probably be the average for a low sec fleet, so they should make AT LEAST 100mil per hr in vanguards.

Make the low/null sec influence go up much faster. DO NOT make it visible from a distance, so that it has to be scouted to see if people are doing them in that area in low/null (Concord I'm sure has Op Sec sense enough to at least do that: not exclaim, "hey these guys which are doing us a favor, hey, come blow them up please!"). Although the hotspot of activity from the map will probably do a decent job of doing this.

Secondly, let some faction mods and BPCs occasionally drop for the smaller fleets. Maybe like some frigates in Vanguards, cruiser BPCs in assaults, and battleships in HQs. Give ninja looters something to ninja loot and cause drama (outside of the moms) I think that anytime you have to bash a structure for 10 minutes with a forty man fleet, it should drop some kind of loot... Might want to make it not always Sansha designs and stuff or the market may crash for them. Sure, the moms drop some nice stuff, but YOU (as in, the peon with the guns) will never get a chance to see it without either paying absurd amounts for them or getting banned and basically unable to run incursions unless you can create your own community of people that also wishes to be ostracized by the main incursion community and did so because they're greedy pricks.

And the obvious "fix the OTAs and make them less dumb". It feels like the forum game, corrupt a wish, where everyone wished for more OTAs and someone replied, "Granted, but now they suck and you hate them."

Furthermore, I absolutely love the idea of varied sites (Repping/defending a station, escorting a convoy of valuable goods under attack of sansha, more stuff like what's in HQs but for vanguards. Little special mechanics that make things interesting rather than "KILL ALL THE THINGS!!!"). Maybe you have to have a tackler for a mission who runs up to a sansha officer and scrams him before he can warp off to earn extra loot or something.

Also, make people with 5.0+ of Sansha faction not be attacked by the Sansha in the sites (or some other high amount that guarantees being ostracized in empire, like 8.0 or something), so the Sansha roleplayers can really mess up the day of the incursion runners. Maybe, if the incursion is not rebuffed, it becomes sovereignty of Sansha's Nation until the Mom can be defeated?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#320 - 2012-05-17 11:00:35 UTC
Kalicor Lightwind wrote:
Honestly... Incursions were actually decently fun, and they are what got me to stay with the game after being away for almost two years.

To fix the null/low sec thing: Multiply their current payout times about three. I think people might run vanguards in low if they paid out 45mil... I'd certainly fit out a low sec maelstrom right now to do them. If I lose a ship every twenty sites (due to pvp, or too much alpha, whatever), I would still be making quite a decent amount of money. If we want to talk about risk versus reward: there ya go. If you could get an alpha rofl fleet going and do 6 minute sites, that would be 450mil ISK an hour, at the risk of losing your multi billion ISK ships to do so.

450m an hour for a single pilot? Congratulations, you just broke the economy. Dual boxing that would be giving me nearly a billion in pure ISK an hour, even triple boxing wormholes I don't make that much.

Kalicor Lightwind wrote:
I think people might just do it for that much money, plus they can't get hotdropped by capitals while doing it. If that's too much, make go to about 2x payout. My point is when you have to invest more than a throwaway amount of money into something it has to pay enough to make up for the risk. Turning on that PvP enabled flag in which death means losing many, many hours worth of work? I think people are a bit masochistic to assume that anything but the sweetest of bread crumbs would encourage that. Certainly not for a few extra million per site, when the risk is to lose three hundred of those millions (or far more with a shiny ship). I think it would be more reasonable to say that 10-12minutes would probably be the average for a low sec fleet, so they should make AT LEAST 100mil per hr in vanguards.

The problem with buffing low sec and null sec incursions is that this leads to rampant inflation, and it is a redundant strategy anyway.

Income in Eve is relative, nerfing high sec has the same effect as buffing low and null. It's just less popular because it involves the word "nerf".

Kalicor Lightwind wrote:
Make the low/null sec influence go up much faster. DO NOT make it visible from a distance, so that it has to be scouted to see if people are doing them in that area in low/null (Concord I'm sure has Op Sec sense enough to at least do that: not exclaim, "hey these guys which are doing us a favor, hey, come blow them up please!"). Although the hotspot of activity from the map will probably do a decent job of doing this.

I agree on this point, having incursions on the map and having all the sites show on the overview and easily be warped to is largely incompatible with null and low sec.

Kalicor Lightwind wrote:
Also, make people with 5.0+ of Sansha faction not be attacked by the Sansha in the sites (or some other high amount that guarantees being ostracized in empire, like 8.0 or something), so the Sansha roleplayers can really mess up the day of the incursion runners. Maybe, if the incursion is not rebuffed, it becomes sovereignty of Sansha's Nation until the Mom can be defeated?

To be fair all they'd be able to do in high sec is run in and RR the sansha. It would be annoying, but not much else.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]