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Incursion changes

First post
Author
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#261 - 2012-05-08 21:48:49 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:


Are you aware that people fit ships different, Not like a little lamb like yourself.

are you even aware the role of bhaal in fleet fight vs capital or guardian support???


Exactly, It is used in many events, High sec, WH, Etc this does not mean you MUST have Tali's. If you go into a WH ofc.

the fit above is full neut fit, full slave won't do any good
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2012-05-08 21:50:28 UTC
ChemicalQueen wrote:
Is anyone aware this is an incursion nerf feedback thread?


No whats that thread?

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

MrWacko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2012-05-08 22:45:39 UTC
Warning: Incoming wall of text taking up two posts.

The shield HQ/AS incursion community (The Valhalla Project) is still managing to move along, but it increasingly feels like we're taking war refugees. Frankly we'd be suffering too, if it weren't for having something resembling stable leadership, and running the least nerfed sites. The double/triple nerf to almost all incursion sites is way beyond what was needed or expected. As other incursion community leaders have stated already, the communities are suffering. Here's my take on why, from the (yet another) perspective of a shield HQ FC and community leader.

Incursions overall, of all flavors, were hit hard by the influence bar. Upwards of 100 people need to be actively running sites to keep the incursion bar down, and it takes forever to actually lower it to 0. If incursions were created today, they would never be touched for this reason alone. Low-sec and null-sec incursions are not being run now due to this very reason as well. Too much risk, for basically no reward relative to null ratting, plexes, etc. High-sec groups are being pushed together, but the shear effort and manpower needed to get anywhere with the influence bar is rather daunting.

VANGUARDS:
I run these the least, as I find the larger sites to be more fun, so this is less experience speaking, and more opinion gathering. They were nerfed the most, being hit with a triple hit in the form of the influence bar, reduced payout, and a huge spawn increase. One, maybe two of these would have been fine, if done with some thought. I like challenging sites, it makes folks think, and actually allows skilled pilots/FC's to get somewhere, but what you guys did was just up the tediousness of them.

Nation Commander Outpost (NCO): So there's more stuff to blow up, and legion fleets can't blitz them quite as insanely. At the end of the day though, it's just a turkey shoot. You need one site like that for all of them, at least as a simple introduction to the site size. Still tedious. Maybe a tad more randomization/threatening ships, but less overall ships. Honestly not sure.

Nation Mining Colony (NMC): A bit more diversity, as you have to do something other than blow up ships to get paid. Still a point and shoot kinda shindig though. Gets tedious quickly like NCO's though.

Override Transfer Array (OTA): These just went from being near the best, to being the crippled old man of Vanguards. While I have no issues with increased complexity/hardness/whatever, you guys made this a tad too hard for folks to get anywhere. 100km to travel for the hacking array makes specialization for this site a *****. You have to have a ship dedicated to this and nothing else, which at a fleet size of 10 is just silly. Has potential to be actually fun, but went a bit too far into the hard realm. Move the hack point closer to the spawn, and perhaps remove a few DPS ships.

ASSAULTS:
These are where I have a bit more experience. I still run HQ's the most, but I've been running Assaults more since the patch. Overall, these are just the bastard child of incursions. No one really runs them, as they were effectively double nerfed over the patch. Some shiny folks run them, but as soon as you hit NCN walls, you run into problems. Your patch notes from Escalation stated assaults would be buffed, which frankly didn't happen. I'm getting more info in the near future, as I hope to run them more.

Overwhelmed Civilian Facility (OCF): You added ships to the spawns. This makes them harder, not easier. You also have to blow up every ship on the field, which is just annoying. The civilian picking up is nice and has potential, but needs improvement. I'd suggest having captured civilians spawn from any ship, not just the romi's/last ship on grid from a wave. In addition, have larger ships give more captured civilians. Lastly, make it so that you have to defend the freighter as it leaves, and give the freighter the align/warp time of an actual obelisk (AKA forever). As all of that only really adds time, make more civilians spawn from the waves, and allow the civies to be dropped sooner. You could also change payout to index with the number of civies rescued.

Nation Commander Stronghold (NCS): While normally a semi-boring "shoot **** till it dies" site, randomized spawns and more threats, plus the larger fleet size makes this a bit more fun. Still not the manifestation of entertainment though. Maybe bring in logistics arrays, like OTA or Mom sites, in combination with a bit more incoming DPS, and change the commander spawn condition to be something other than his standing fleet being massacred.

Nation Consolidation Network (NCN): There are reasons these flood assault systems. Namely, we hate them. No, we don't hate them, we want to murder them, burn the corpse, and then curse NCN's entire bloodline. Split site was an inventive idea, except it is taxing on FC's (you need two of them), you drastically limit fleet comp (1 side doesn't take battleships), and it takes for ever to run the sides. Tier 3 Battlecruisers help quite a bit with the fleet comp problem, but they still take quite a while to run. If you guys wanna help, remove a room from each side, and allow T2 BC's into the cruiser side. I'm of the opinion that this site is hopeless, though. Split site goes against the grain of the whole group thing, splitting the fleet into two separate fleets.

And now, for HQ's! Only I'm running out of space in this post, so post number 2 here I come!
MrWacko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2012-05-08 22:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MrWacko
HEADQUARTERS:
Favorite sites. Hence why I FC them. Pre-patch they were alright. Not mad amounts of ISK, but then again we ran these because they were more fun. They paid out alright amounts, but not tons. With the patch, the influence nerf hit them, but beyond that very little really touched them. Most HQ issues were existing before the patch. If larger sites are supposed to pay with relation to the complexity and difficulty of maintaining the large fleet, then they should pay a bit more, as current they top out at about 60m/hr, assuming absolute best conditions and all specialized roles are available.

Nation Rebirth Facility (NRF): Once upon a time, you could blitz this quite efficiently. Given the difficulty and level of work an FC had to do to actually pull this off, it was worth it, as far as workload and stuff. Getting and keeping 40 people, of the right fleet comp to quickly run this site was actually mildly challenging. Now, it suffers from the same problem half the other shoot em up sites suffer from, the tedious nature of shooting every last ship on grid. Shifting the wave trigger to a semi-random unit, and allowing folks to ignore the tedious random ships would work wonders for making this site better. Or just put the triggers on the old triggers, and keep the randomized spawns. That'd work too.

True Creations Research Facility (TCRC): If ever there was a stressful yet fun site, this was it. Keeps DPS, Logi, everyone on their toes, requires multiple specialized positions to run efficiently (or even at all), and is overall a blast. Dangerous, but blitzable if you know what you're doing. Could use a payment buff (as could all HQ's, but I'm biased here), or some sort of defense against preload griefing (getting all the spawns to spawn before a fleet enters), but overall a very good site. Nice risk-reward for this site.

True Power Provisional Headquarters (TPPH): Mindnumbingly tedious, as they take forever to get through the separate rooms, and then you have to go afk for 10 minutes to bash a tower. Kills fleet momentum, and is dull as heck. Upping ships and difficulty would not help with the 10 minute tower bash at the end. Three rooms is also rather annoying. I'd suggest removing one room and move the acceleration gates closer, and reduce the HP of the tower a bit. Alternatively, steal a bit from the TCRC's, by having the enemies keep respawning while you shoot at the tower.

To summarize everything:
- Incursion influence gain is too high, especially for null/low.
- Shooting every last ship is tedious beyond belief.
- Move OTA hack point closer.
- Buff assaults when you say you're going to.
- NCN's can die in a ditch. We hate them. Lots.
- Make TPPH's less time consuming.

I'm sure I'm probably forgetting a fair amount of stuff, but I can only type so much before needing to get back to real life. Do enjoy munching on these comments folks.

I've only read up to page 6 of this thread so many of these ideas have probably been stated before. As the ratio of trolls to useful comments started going up around then though, I don't think I missed much as far as content.
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2012-05-08 23:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: xxanjoahir
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:


[Ishtar,]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Salvager II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x10
Warden II x5
Warden II x8

Take aggro from room and let sentries do work while you work your tractor beams and salvage... jettison into can and bm for it later.


I thank you for trying but you failed utterly. My reasoning

Your Fit imgur link - in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 337 DPS well repairing its armor by 118 hit points per second. resistances : thermal 79.3% kinetic 89.6%....... that is barely enough to tank the old sanctums never mind the new ones..... And you have to come back in an additional ship to pick up the salvage. More logistics work.

My fit without the faction or tech 2 missile rig ( I'm going to play fair ) imgur link in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 652 the DPS ( yes I know I boasted 750 I was wrong I didn't look before I posted that .) and and regeneration shields at 126 hit per second, with resistances of thermal 91.0% kinetic of 86.5%..

are you saying taking a DPS loss of 52%(rounding up to the nearest whole percent) which means each site takes that much longer. Than turning around spending more time Moving it to a market systemand selling it. Will make me more money? you're insane.

I rest my argument, you no longer had any legs to stand on. ( this is not counting faction loot because I pick that up anyways and is not counted)


I think you will find that this will sit in a guristas santum all ******* day.... what is there to haul ?? Refine factory is in damn system and all loot is repro-ed and used to make Bc and BS and sold for extra 50 - 60m.... Dont BS me - this work very well for me and i live in a null sec alliance doing this all freakin day.... Thats the damn eco system working right there so make use of it, the gap between high and null is wide enough your just too damn lazy to realise it.

PS: Tengu fit .... nice bot.
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#266 - 2012-05-08 23:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
xxanjoahir wrote:
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:


[Ishtar,]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Salvager II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x10
Warden II x5
Warden II x8

Take aggro from room and let sentries do work while you work your tractor beams and salvage... jettison into can and bm for it later.


I thank you for trying but you failed utterly. My reasoning

Your Fit imgur link - in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 337 DPS well repairing its armor by 118 hit points per second. resistances : thermal 79.3% kinetic 89.6%....... that is barely enough to tank the old sanctums never mind the new ones..... And you have to come back in an additional ship to pick up the salvage. More logistics work.

My fit without the faction or tech 2 missile rig ( I'm going to play fair ) imgur link in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 652 the DPS ( yes I know I boasted 750 I was wrong I didn't look before I posted that .) and and regeneration shields at 126 hit per second, with resistances of thermal 91.0% kinetic of 86.5%..

are you saying taking a DPS loss of 52%(rounding up to the nearest whole percent) which means each site takes that much longer. Than turning around spending more time Moving it to a market systemand selling it. Will make me more money? you're insane.

I rest my argument, you no longer had any legs to stand on. ( this is not counting faction loot because I pick that up anyways and is not counted)


I think you will find that this will sit in a guristas santum all ******* day.... what is there to haul ?? Refine factory is in damn system and all loot is repro-ed and used to make Bc and BS and sold for extra 50 - 60m.... Dont BS me - this work very well for me and i live in a null sec alliance doing this all freakin day.... Thats the damn eco system working right there so make use of it, the gap between high and null is wide enough your just too damn lazy to realise it.

PS: Tengu fit .... nice bot.


I'm not even going to pretend to say I know what your experiences because you're posting on a character, that has been in the NPC Corp. since it was created. Which makes me think you're trying to hide something, maybe your politics. Post on the character that has a history to back up your claims.

I could rat for an hour , pick up all the mods build a couple damage controls, and put them on the market with with three zeros more than the rest of them. And some idiot might buy them. That does not mean I made that money ratting. It means I made that money market trading. you have to be on something.
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2012-05-08 23:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: xxanjoahir
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:


[Ishtar,]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Salvager II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x10
Warden II x5
Warden II x8

Take aggro from room and let sentries do work while you work your tractor beams and salvage... jettison into can and bm for it later.


I thank you for trying but you failed utterly. My reasoning

Your Fit imgur link - in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 337 DPS well repairing its armor by 118 hit points per second. resistances : thermal 79.3% kinetic 89.6%....... that is barely enough to tank the old sanctums never mind the new ones..... And you have to come back in an additional ship to pick up the salvage. More logistics work.

My fit without the faction or tech 2 missile rig ( I'm going to play fair ) imgur link in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 652 the DPS ( yes I know I boasted 750 I was wrong I didn't look before I posted that .) and and regeneration shields at 126 hit per second, with resistances of thermal 91.0% kinetic of 86.5%..

are you saying taking a DPS loss of 52%(rounding up to the nearest whole percent) which means each site takes that much longer. Than turning around spending more time Moving it to a market systemand selling it. Will make me more money? you're insane.

I rest my argument, you no longer had any legs to stand on. ( this is not counting faction loot because I pick that up anyways and is not counted)


I think you will find that this will sit in a guristas santum all ******* day.... what is there to haul ?? Refine factory is in damn system and all loot is repro-ed and used to make Bc and BS and sold for extra 50 - 60m.... Dont BS me - this work very well for me and i live in a null sec alliance doing this all freakin day.... Thats the damn eco system working right there so make use of it, the gap between high and null is wide enough your just too damn lazy to realise it.

PS: Tengu fit .... nice bot.


I'm not even going to pretend to say I know what your experiences because you're posting on a character, that has been in the NPC Corp. since it was created. Which makes me think you're trying to hide something, maybe your politics. Post on the character that has a history to back up your claims.

I could rat for an hour , pick up all the mods build a couple damage controls, and put them on the market with with three zeros more than the rest of them. And some idiot might buy them. That does not mean I made that money ratting. It means I made that money market trading. you have to be on something.


Pubbie test is now using the liine of im in a NPC corp, LOL.... you know full well that what i speak is accurate and now your using the "that money making is market trading" bullshit..... But i thought living in null sec was all about creatng eco systems where ISK / Hour should be greater than in high sec..... Shocked - the activity i describe is what you should be doing instead of running your blob JF's backwards and forwards from Jita every day.... thats lazyness right there.

PS: thats an activity completed solo by the way ShockedShocked
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#268 - 2012-05-09 01:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
xxanjoahir wrote:
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:


[Ishtar,]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Salvager II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x10
Warden II x5
Warden II x8

Take aggro from room and let sentries do work while you work your tractor beams and salvage... jettison into can and bm for it later.


I thank you for trying but you failed utterly. My reasoning

Your Fit imgur link - in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 337 DPS well repairing its armor by 118 hit points per second. resistances : thermal 79.3% kinetic 89.6%....... that is barely enough to tank the old sanctums never mind the new ones..... And you have to come back in an additional ship to pick up the salvage. More logistics work.

My fit without the faction or tech 2 missile rig ( I'm going to play fair ) imgur link in Pyfa all level 5 skills, does 652 the DPS ( yes I know I boasted 750 I was wrong I didn't look before I posted that .) and and regeneration shields at 126 hit per second, with resistances of thermal 91.0% kinetic of 86.5%..

are you saying taking a DPS loss of 52%(rounding up to the nearest whole percent) which means each site takes that much longer. Than turning around spending more time Moving it to a market systemand selling it. Will make me more money? you're insane.

I rest my argument, you no longer had any legs to stand on. ( this is not counting faction loot because I pick that up anyways and is not counted)


I think you will find that this will sit in a guristas santum all ******* day.... what is there to haul ?? Refine factory is in damn system and all loot is repro-ed and used to make Bc and BS and sold for extra 50 - 60m.... Dont BS me - this work very well for me and i live in a null sec alliance doing this all freakin day.... Thats the damn eco system working right there so make use of it, the gap between high and null is wide enough your just too damn lazy to realise it.

PS: Tengu fit .... nice bot.


I'm not even going to pretend to say I know what your experiences because you're posting on a character, that has been in the NPC Corp. since it was created. Which makes me think you're trying to hide something, maybe your politics. Post on the character that has a history to back up your claims.

I could rat for an hour , pick up all the mods build a couple damage controls, and put them on the market with with three zeros more than the rest of them. And some idiot might buy them. That does not mean I made that money ratting. It means I made that money market trading. you have to be on something.


Pubbie test is now using the liine of im in a NPC corp, LOL.... you know full well that what i speak is accurate and now your using the "that money making is market trading" bullshit..... But i thought living in null sec was all about creatng eco systems where ISK / Hour should be greater than in high sec..... Shocked - the activity i describe is what you should be doing instead of running your blob JF's backwards and forwards from Jita every day.... thats lazyness right there.

PS: thats an activity completed solo by the way ShockedShocked


I have surmised that you're just and idiot Everything that you've posted in since the beginning of the year, you haven't backed up any of your claims with proof of any kind. And you've done nothing but **** on the CFC every chance you got. so.. good job.

You're probably trolling me, but you just keep making yourself look like more of an idiot, every time you post. if you need proof just search his name on the forum search and take a few minutes to read.. I am done with you xxanjoahir have a good day..

PS : Mechanically jump freighter runs are group activity, because a jump freighter can't jump to a system without either Cyno which requires a second character, or a beacon which you're an absolute idiot if you're 6 billion unarmed ship without seeing if it's clear, which again requires a second character. .. so fail again.
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End
#269 - 2012-05-09 03:40:16 UTC
The 10% additional nerf was unnecessary and people have stopped doing them nearly completely. I can earn the same amount doing missions in high sec with much less risk.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#270 - 2012-05-09 04:19:59 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15444001

well, the HG slave set was lost in PVP, but still. I couldn't have bought it if it wasn't for incursions

Then it isn't an incursion loss.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://gyazo.com/872b7881331eff7e59035e5ecb8076cd

http://gyazo.com/03fa7b0f67fb6e1bd772a1882d17418a

http://gyazo.com/c8f0d8e51380d8ad4fbcc92e728c35ec

http://gyazo.com/091ad9dea5833fa2f08f924c53bec263

Not that I need explain, but I don't think battleclinic is the best system for API verification. I also don't think Battleclinic updates NPC kills at all.

Lol, I almost forgot about my poor Hakim's stasis web. :(

So over an entire year you've lost a couple of guardians and two battleships? And you haven't lost anything in the last seven months? And how much ISK have you generated farming incursions?

I don't think we have the same definition of sand box game play, and I certainly don't think we are both on the same page when it comes to defining appreciable levels of generating demand for ships. I mean in comparison this one battle report that Aquila posted destroyed considerably more, in a single fight in a wormhole:

Apolyon I wrote:

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#271 - 2012-05-09 06:55:30 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15444001

well, the HG slave set was lost in PVP, but still. I couldn't have bought it if it wasn't for incursions

Then it isn't an incursion loss.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://gyazo.com/872b7881331eff7e59035e5ecb8076cd

http://gyazo.com/03fa7b0f67fb6e1bd772a1882d17418a

http://gyazo.com/c8f0d8e51380d8ad4fbcc92e728c35ec

http://gyazo.com/091ad9dea5833fa2f08f924c53bec263

Not that I need explain, but I don't think battleclinic is the best system for API verification. I also don't think Battleclinic updates NPC kills at all.

Lol, I almost forgot about my poor Hakim's stasis web. :(

So over an entire year you've lost a couple of guardians and two battleships? And you haven't lost anything in the last seven months? And how much ISK have you generated farming incursions?


I took a short break from the incursion community and helped my alliance settle a Wh, then went back and did some incursions about a month ago. So I've not been "Farming" incursions. And when I go to incursions I run in Assault fleets and higher. So I'm not doing the "Grinding" that every incursion runner is charged with.

Also, you say that I lost 2 battleships as if it was nothing, did you look at some of the modules destroyed. An officer web worth at current guess 2.5 billion isk, A-type EANM's worth 1 billion T2 rigs on all but 1 of the ships. Both guardians fitted with A-type adaptive nano platings.

I do other things than just incursions, I also pvp from time to time... I'm not an "Isk hoarder" another charge for most incursion runners, think I've got just under a billion isk liquid at the moment.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#272 - 2012-05-09 07:24:32 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15444001

well, the HG slave set was lost in PVP, but still. I couldn't have bought it if it wasn't for incursions

Then it isn't an incursion loss.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:
http://gyazo.com/872b7881331eff7e59035e5ecb8076cd

http://gyazo.com/03fa7b0f67fb6e1bd772a1882d17418a

http://gyazo.com/c8f0d8e51380d8ad4fbcc92e728c35ec

http://gyazo.com/091ad9dea5833fa2f08f924c53bec263

Not that I need explain, but I don't think battleclinic is the best system for API verification. I also don't think Battleclinic updates NPC kills at all.

Lol, I almost forgot about my poor Hakim's stasis web. :(

So over an entire year you've lost a couple of guardians and two battleships? And you haven't lost anything in the last seven months? And how much ISK have you generated farming incursions?


I took a short break from the incursion community and helped my alliance settle a Wh, then went back and did some incursions about a month ago. So I've not been "Farming" incursions. And when I go to incursions I run in Assault fleets and higher. So I'm not doing the "Grinding" that every incursion runner is charged with.

Also, you say that I lost 2 battleships as if it was nothing, did you look at some of the modules destroyed. An officer web worth at current guess 2.5 billion isk, A-type EANM's worth 1 billion T2 rigs on all but 1 of the ships. Both guardians fitted with A-type adaptive nano platings.

I do other things than just incursions, I also pvp from time to time... I'm not an "Isk hoarder" another charge for most incursion runners, think I've got just under a billion isk liquid at the moment.

you just prove how big the incursion isk fountain is
ISN Spy spizors
Doomheim
#273 - 2012-05-09 07:49:28 UTC
MrWacko wrote:

or some sort of defense against preload griefing (getting all the spawns to spawn before a fleet enters),.


OTAs have the same problem now, as if they weren't hard enough for the average player, now you need an over-tanked anchor with overheated invuls.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#274 - 2012-05-09 08:06:20 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:

you just prove how big the incursion isk fountain is


How so? I could have grinded missions and bought the same modules, but would never have lost them.

So yes, there is a bit of an isk fountain in Incursions but there is also a sink to balance some of that out.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#275 - 2012-05-09 08:59:31 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?


TL;DR:

  • Vanguard changes haven't stopped pirate BS blitz fleets in highsec but have hurt 'regular' highsec pickup fleets and lowsec HAC/T3 fleets
  • Increasing Vanguard payouts by 10% would bring highsec blitz income close to previous levels while not appreciably helping other fleets
  • Assault changes missed the mark - problem was and remains the NCN sites, not NPC grouping or difficulty
  • To make assaults more attractive, reduce number of rooms in NCNs and allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms



Wall of text:
I disagree with the claim that the Vanguard changes have somehow stopped blitzing; if anything, they've significantly increased the gap in earning power between pirate BS-heavy blitz gangs and other fleet types. Highsec pirate BS blitz fleets now get through sites in 4-6 minutes, while both 'regular' pickup fleets and the HAC/T3-heavy fleets that were most commonly used for lowsec incursions now take 10 minutes+ per site. This is largely due to the Override Transfer Array sites - while pirate BS fleets can punch through the NPCs' reps without needing to hack, other fleet types cannot. Reversing the 10% income change would bring the blitz fleets' income close to pre-nerf levels while not really helping other fleets all that much. Ultimately, I don't think it's going to be possible to prevent players from min-maxing fleet compositions and tactics to minimize site completion times unless you're willing to introduce some kind of hard lower boundary on site completion times, such as a boss NPC who only spawns after a specific amount of time has passed.

As for assaults, I think your comments and changes both miss the mark. The main source of complaints, before and after the changes in Escalation, was that the Nation Consolidation Network site is a giant pain in the ass, being much slower to complete than the other two assault sites and requiring a much more specifically-tailored fleet composition. You didn't really do anything significant to address that, and the changes you did make had little impact on running assaults one way or the other. If you want to make assaults more attractive, you're going to have to do something about the NCN. Ideally, this would be done by having only one cruiser-only and one BS-only room before the final room in which the fleet re-unites, with an increased number of NPC waves in the two rooms where the fleet is separated. In addition, I would encourage you to allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms, since they are more useful than most cruiser hulls in the other assault sites, and so would make it less of a drag to get an NCN-capable fleet together.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#276 - 2012-05-09 09:02:01 UTC
So did a dev reply to this thread? nope.

Did people waste their time writing well-thought posts and discussing this issue, trying to propose a solution? yep.

Did other people propose (some trolling) counter arguments? absolutely.

Will the dev ignore this thread (calling it a shitfest) and do exactly what they said they would do BEFORE reading any feedback? i'm quite certain of it.

This is really ridiculous, it doesnt matter if you think incursions should be nerfed or not (i personally live in 0.0 an never made one so what do i care? i only care about the game health) this behaviour is F*CKING insulting.

And, coincidence? The team of devs who's tweaking incursions is lead by the mind behind incarna.

I think is time people stop taking this guys seriously, talking and writing is useless.

You want to be heard, cancel some of your accs subs and write "incursion nerf" as the reason.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#277 - 2012-05-09 09:20:43 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

Gives the single handed most logical breakdown of the changes and does so like a Sir.


+1 for everything he said in his previous post.
RAP ACTION HERO
#278 - 2012-05-09 10:26:26 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?


TL;DR:

  • Vanguard changes haven't stopped pirate BS blitz fleets in highsec but have hurt 'regular' highsec pickup fleets and lowsec HAC/T3 fleets
  • Increasing Vanguard payouts by 10% would bring highsec blitz income close to previous levels while not appreciably helping other fleets
  • Assault changes missed the mark - problem was and remains the NCN sites, not NPC grouping or difficulty
  • To make assaults more attractive, reduce number of rooms in NCNs and allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms



Wall of text:
I disagree with the claim that the Vanguard changes have somehow stopped blitzing; if anything, they've significantly increased the gap in earning power between pirate BS-heavy blitz gangs and other fleet types. Highsec pirate BS blitz fleets now get through sites in 4-6 minutes, while both 'regular' pickup fleets and the HAC/T3-heavy fleets that were most commonly used for lowsec incursions now take 10 minutes+ per site. This is largely due to the Override Transfer Array sites - while pirate BS fleets can punch through the NPCs' reps without needing to hack, other fleet types cannot. Reversing the 10% income change would bring the blitz fleets' income close to pre-nerf levels while not really helping other fleets all that much. Ultimately, I don't think it's going to be possible to prevent players from min-maxing fleet compositions and tactics to minimize site completion times unless you're willing to introduce some kind of hard lower boundary on site completion times, such as a boss NPC who only spawns after a specific amount of time has passed.

As for assaults, I think your comments and changes both miss the mark. The main source of complaints, before and after the changes in Escalation, was that the Nation Consolidation Network site is a giant pain in the ass, being much slower to complete than the other two assault sites and requiring a much more specifically-tailored fleet composition. You didn't really do anything significant to address that, and the changes you did make had little impact on running assaults one way or the other. If you want to make assaults more attractive, you're going to have to do something about the NCN. Ideally, this would be done by having only one cruiser-only and one BS-only room before the final room in which the fleet re-unites, with an increased number of NPC waves in the two rooms where the fleet is separated. In addition, I would encourage you to allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms, since they are more useful than most cruiser hulls in the other assault sites, and so would make it less of a drag to get an NCN-capable fleet together.


come on mang, don't be a scrub whining about shiney pirate BSs, risk vs reward when they undock in 4 bil ships.

vitoc erryday

Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2012-05-09 12:43:16 UTC
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?


TL;DR:

  • Vanguard changes haven't stopped pirate BS blitz fleets in highsec but have hurt 'regular' highsec pickup fleets and lowsec HAC/T3 fleets
  • Increasing Vanguard payouts by 10% would bring highsec blitz income close to previous levels while not appreciably helping other fleets
  • Assault changes missed the mark - problem was and remains the NCN sites, not NPC grouping or difficulty
  • To make assaults more attractive, reduce number of rooms in NCNs and allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms



Wall of text:
I disagree with the claim that the Vanguard changes have somehow stopped blitzing; if anything, they've significantly increased the gap in earning power between pirate BS-heavy blitz gangs and other fleet types. Highsec pirate BS blitz fleets now get through sites in 4-6 minutes, while both 'regular' pickup fleets and the HAC/T3-heavy fleets that were most commonly used for lowsec incursions now take 10 minutes+ per site. This is largely due to the Override Transfer Array sites - while pirate BS fleets can punch through the NPCs' reps without needing to hack, other fleet types cannot. Reversing the 10% income change would bring the blitz fleets' income close to pre-nerf levels while not really helping other fleets all that much. Ultimately, I don't think it's going to be possible to prevent players from min-maxing fleet compositions and tactics to minimize site completion times unless you're willing to introduce some kind of hard lower boundary on site completion times, such as a boss NPC who only spawns after a specific amount of time has passed.

As for assaults, I think your comments and changes both miss the mark. The main source of complaints, before and after the changes in Escalation, was that the Nation Consolidation Network site is a giant pain in the ass, being much slower to complete than the other two assault sites and requiring a much more specifically-tailored fleet composition. You didn't really do anything significant to address that, and the changes you did make had little impact on running assaults one way or the other. If you want to make assaults more attractive, you're going to have to do something about the NCN. Ideally, this would be done by having only one cruiser-only and one BS-only room before the final room in which the fleet re-unites, with an increased number of NPC waves in the two rooms where the fleet is separated. In addition, I would encourage you to allow Command Ships into the cruiser rooms, since they are more useful than most cruiser hulls in the other assault sites, and so would make it less of a drag to get an NCN-capable fleet together.


come on mang, don't be a scrub whining about shiney pirate BSs, risk vs reward when they undock in 4 bil ships.



More QQ, Oh this doesn't surprise me.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#280 - 2012-05-09 12:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: xxanjoahir
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:

I have surmised that you're just and idiot Everything that you've posted in since the beginning of the year, you haven't backed up any of your claims with proof of any kind. And you've done nothing but **** on the CFC every chance you got. so.. good job.

You're probably trolling me, but you just keep making yourself look like more of an idiot, every time you post. if you need proof just search his name on the forum search and take a few minutes to read.. I am done with you xxanjoahir have a good day..

PS : Mechanically jump freighter runs are group activity, because a jump freighter can't jump to a system without either Cyno which requires a second character, or a beacon which you're an absolute idiot if you're 6 billion unarmed ship without seeing if it's clear, which again requires a second character. .. so fail again.


Now im a troll becuase i disagree with your BS posts?

keep going dude - i find your "proof" so diluted that your making quite a simple way of playing eve seem so HUMONGOUSLY HARD.... I've shown you the fit i use to sit in sanctums and havens and other plexes and complete sites with no risk what so ever.

your just talking the same **** that everyone null sec cry baby is saying and if your not happy with the way null sec is played go play Counter-strike. LolLol

PS: Laughing at you from the system you reside in watching you station spin oh and OOOOOOOPS LOL - what happened there bot disengaged did it? Now i know why you bit when i told you a 200m ship could tank quite easily Sanctum and Havens.