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Incursion changes

First post
Author
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-05-04 11:16:19 UTC
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-05-04 11:19:01 UTC
Nerf 'em. Nerf 'em all to hell! 10% income nerf is just fine. Give more LP if anything.
Target missions next Soundwave!
Aidamina Omen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-04 11:59:46 UTC
I am not much of an incursion specialist, in fact I have never run a Incursion site in my life. But what I've heard from other close to me that do run those sites is that the latest changes took a lot of excitement out of incursions. People don't just run incursion for the ISK but also because it's superior content in the fun department compared to say missions.

I would suggest to increase difficulty and up the pace of the sites. But don't spend too much time iterating on getting the perfect balance, because the main reason CCP gets so much heat about Incursions is because missions are boring to the point you want to stab yourself in the eye with a screwdriver.

As soon as you make other sorts of PVE more fun by letting them use superior AI or whatever changes you can implement will draw a lot of people away from Incursions again, and will create a more balanced view of Incursions.

I know this is probably not the sort of reply you are looking for, but just wanted to put it out there.
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-05-04 12:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Comy 1
I would like to see objectives that "has" to be done in the sites, or the Sanshas would get an additional support team to enter through a wormhole or something.

Say like the hacking in that vanguard site, just that **** is gonna hit the fan if you ignore it for too long.

But to stay on topic, give people more incentives to do the larger sites.
NoxiousPluK
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-05-04 12:17:07 UTC
Also maybe boost the low end Incursion PvE.
For older players the Incursions are (or were, i did only do like 10 or maybe 15 of them) a nice income and a very nice training in having a buffer tanked remote rep fleet (PvP-alike).

For new players, there was not much ISK to make and having a fleet was not really required.

Maybe we need a frig-sized low skill logistics ship to make this available, but it would be fun if the low-end Incursions were more like the high-ends for newer players.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#6 - 2012-05-04 12:44:16 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?


Comments? I'm speechless.

This is in line with last year "our userbase doesnt really know what they want, they'll talk with their wallets".

A part from obvious trolls or people who simply dont understand the the situation i havent seen a single person saying the changes you made were good in any way.

Before people start to whine "incursions need to be nerfed! they're an isk faucet!!" i want to make clear that i agree, in fact even people who run them agree(at least the reasonable ones).

The problem here is HOW you nerfed them, not the nerf per se.

The feedback is already on these forums, written by people more knowledgeable than me and more interested in the problem.
I'll not spend half an hour trying to write a serious post analyzing the problem and its solutions and doing the job you're paid to do.
Risking, in the end, that the post is simply ignored.

I'm posting here just to express my discontent on how you're approaching this situation.
The problem is the same of last year: you need to actually LISTEN to the feedback and be more clear in your communication (i'm referring to the hidden assaults nerf).

I stress it again: listen to the feedback, do tests that simulate the average game experience.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2012-05-04 13:01:50 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking into the Incursions right now. Our changes had varying degrees of success and this is my view on it currently:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

For assaults, I think the NPC groups work fine as well, but the difficulty might have gotten a little too high.

Comments?


Comments? I'm speechless.

This is in line with last year "our userbase doesnt really know what they want, they'll talk with their wallets".

A part from obvious trolls or people who simply dont understand the the situation i havent seen a single person saying the changes you made were good in any way.

Before people start to whine "incursions need to be nerfed! they're an isk faucet!!" i want to make clear that i agree, in fact even people who run them agree(at least the reasonable ones).

The problem here is HOW you nerfed them, not the nerf per se.

The feedback is already on these forums, written by people more knowledgeable than me and more interested in the problem.
I'll not spend half an hour trying to write a serious post analyzing the problem and its solutions and doing the job you're paid to do.
Risking, in the end, that the post is simply ignored.

I'm posting here just to express my discontent on how you're approaching this situation.
The problem is the same of last year: you need to actually LISTEN to the feedback and be more clear in your communication (i'm referring to the hidden assaults nerf).

I stress it again: listen to the feedback, do tests that simulate the average game experience.


I made this thread because the other one kind of degenerated into useless posts, much like this one. Please keep this to feedback about the changes to Incursions.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#8 - 2012-05-04 13:09:06 UTC
The only thing I can think of that needs a change,other than your proposed reversals, is the layout of the Nation Consolidation Network. Right now the fleet composition to clear them is different to the heavy long range sniper setups needed in the other two.

This has lead to some areas being nothing but NCN sites with fleets unable to run them due to their setup being tailored to the other sites.

Difficulty isn't an issue personally, I for one welcome more challenging group PvE content to EVE.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

PT109
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-05-04 13:12:08 UTC
Reinstate the 10% in Vanguards........CHECK!!!Big smile

Reduce Assault difficulty.......DO NOT TOUCH IT!!!

Incursions are supposed to be difficult. The only thing I would change is to add a touch more randomness to VG's, especially if you reinstate the 10%. It gets boring after awhile Big smile
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#10 - 2012-05-04 13:12:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The only thing I can think of that needs a change,other than your proposed reversals, is the layout of the Nation Consolidation Network. Right now the fleet composition to clear them is different to the heavy long range sniper setups needed in the other two.

This has lead to some areas being nothing but NCN sites with fleets unable to run them due to their setup being tailored to the other sites.

Difficulty isn't an issue personally, I for one welcome more challenging group PvE content to EVE.


Yeah I'm not too worried about difficulty. Right now my main concerns are the length of assault sites and the payouts.

I just spoke to Affinity. While the trigger on a single NPC was a fairly awful mechanic, I'm not sure the current solution is as great long term as adding some sort of other objectives.
Riapsed Alvilla
Jaded.
#11 - 2012-05-04 13:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Riapsed Alvilla
Difficulty is definitely not too high. They need more risks! They're just boring now. Especially now you don't have to be careful about newer players shooting the wrong thing. Why not add more objectives in missions and incursions? Instead of this boring sit and shoot.

- Maybe a visible timer in which you must be quick and kill the whole wave or certain ships of the first wave before the timer runs out and the second wave is upon you?

- How about better objectives? Actually having to escort a ship through a asteroid belt or protect a damaged ship til its warpdrive is back online/repaired? Then you actually get to see the friendly NPC warp off!?

- What if you had a mission where you needed a fast ship in the fleet to tackle a fast npc ship. That if you didn't catch it in time (lets say in 30sec's) he would warp off to bring reinforcements?

-I wanna see a little Pop up animated portrait window that comes up and says "Do a Barrel Roll!" lol ok, really though. Something like a little portrait pop up window that comes up when the Commander comes on grid then speaks in a Evil Sansha/Russian Voice (That you can also optionally turn off) I know that was random but it would be cool.

It would add some flavor to the stale Npc missioning of semi afk / paying attention, while u watch T.V, switch targets, and click f1 again.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#12 - 2012-05-04 13:19:38 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
A part from obvious trolls or people who simply dont understand the the situation i havent seen a single person saying the changes you made were good in any way.

Most of the complaining has been "I can't make enough isk!" and "It doesn't work the same way as before!" without any real criticism beyond the fact that *gasp* something changed.

Soundwave, you probably know I couldn't run Incursions if I wanted to. However I've talked to a few of the more level-headed people in the incursion community. The feeling I get from them is that they find the new sites tedious to run. They don't complain about the longer times spent in the sites or the payouts nearly as much as I expected; their big issue has been that the sites are now monotonous and unexciting.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-05-04 13:21:43 UTC
Riapsed Alvilla wrote:
(...) Something like a little pop up window that comes up when the Commander comes on grid then speaks in a Evil Sansha/Russian Voice (...)

Reminds me of the message you get when the overseer in the Sansha DED 5/10 plex appears:
Quote:
"When you wake up in your next clone, remember it was the Master's will that you died here today. "

That was an awesome touch to the site :D
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#14 - 2012-05-04 13:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah I'm not too worried about difficulty. Right now my main concerns are the length of assault sites and the payouts.


You're concerned Assaults are just the new VG's and going too quickly?

Quote:
I just spoke to Affinity. While the trigger on a single NPC was a fairly awful mechanic, I'm not sure the current solution is as great long term as adding some sort of other objectives.


Just don't put in 0.0 tower bashing/FW Bunker shoots I beg you.

I'd be bold as to suggest things such as hacking towers, or blowing up complexes (small structures, possibly each with a wave attributed to them)


Alternatively what about defending something from Nation, such as a ship or structure (with the option, or even the necessity to have to repair it) and have the complex run on a timer? That way you've controlled the length of the site. The logistics will be dealing with the repair while the fleet engages hostiles attempting to blow up said critical objective. After x amount of time either help arrives (structure) or the ship you defended gets it's systems working again and warps off.


Edit: Riapsed also put in an escort objective style mission above, I like the idea of new ways to approach PvE. "SHOOT ALL THE THINGS" is a very stale mechanic.. that said this goes beyond just Incursions into a bigger gripe of all PvE for me.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Riapsed Alvilla
Jaded.
#15 - 2012-05-04 13:42:00 UTC
You're a cool dude. Thanks for the credit. Great minds think alike. Maybe we were writing at the same time ;)
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#16 - 2012-05-04 13:45:18 UTC
I think that the "kill the whole wave" was enough without the 10% nerf, so reverting that back sounds reasonable to me (and if it's still not enough, there's always the next patch to tweak it down 10% if needed; small changes are almost always better than giant ones IMO, especially in a game that's as dynamic and reactive as Eve is.

One thing I would suggest looking into, however, is Scout sites. I ran 2-3 a bit ago just for fun. I ran them easily in a Navy Slicer solo, but salvaging just one wreck gave me 3x the ISK that completing the site did. I would love to see them brought up to be more or less on par with lvl 4 missions, both in terms of difficulty and reward.

I think that doing that would make them decent content for lower level players in BCs and such. Making most of the spawns frigs or cruisers would probably help with that because it would make blitzing them solo in a BS less feasible and running a group of BCs with low/med skilled players much more feasible.

Yes, they would still be soloable by someone in a T3 or something, but it's impossible to make sites that younger players can run without making them soloable by older players. I think that making them comprised of lots of smaller ships that have to be locked up individually would make it more annoying for older players to solo them and cause them to just run blitz lvl 4s instead.
Olenka Rzal
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-05-04 13:58:00 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

Comments?


+1

Agreed, as a long time incursion runner this would be a fine compromise to bring VGs slightly less nerf.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-05-04 14:37:13 UTC
I to would like to see an Incursion site that is geared more for the new player that can't get into the other ones because they can't can't fly a pimped out battleship.

Maybe a site that pays half of what a VG pays and has a ship limit of battle cruisers and below. I haven't run a Scout beacon site yet but I did do a few of the Scout belt ratting sites with another player last week to see what it was about and it was a joke. 50K ISK for that vs 8M ISK or so for a VG. I'd rather spin ships then do that. Are the Scout beacon sites any better?

Regarding the recent changes, I just hear mixed complaining. No real reasons. Last night I was hearing the OTA's just took too long to complete. I will say the last few nights the Incursion community has shrunk a great deal.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#19 - 2012-05-04 15:10:25 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I to would like to see an Incursion site that is geared more for the new player that can't get into the other ones because they can't can't fly a pimped out battleship.

Maybe a site that pays half of what a VG pays and has a ship limit of battle cruisers and below.


I've called for this several times now. Revamp Scout sites, pay at an L4 mission rate and limit the accel gate to T1 hulls BC and lower.

Right now Scout sites are useless, make them something newer players can focus on instead of rushing to a crap skilled BS to farm L4s in.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-05-04 15:22:15 UTC
I'm not sure noob incursion sites should be paid around the same as level 4 missions. level 4 missions mostly require battleships as well. But they should not pay the same as level 3's as those pay out **** as well.

very difficult to get the pay right as one person may be perfectly happy with the pay on one pve experience but then someone else, with the same ship and skills will hate that same payout
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