Warfare & Tactics

Cause everyone is ignoring the number one change that everyone's been asking for YEARS now, and finally got, the LP payouts for kills and plexing.

You don't get any of those if you're not enlisted, if you go "full pie" you live off the modules your prey drops. Stick around in FW, and you get some sweet LP payouts in addition to the mods that drop.

No one is forcing anyone to meta game or participate in joint ops. If you just want to jump into the next system, beat your chest, kill some people, you can do just that and that alone. The difference is that now there's a paid incentive to do so that never before existed.

This loop of getting paid so you can constantly fight and never grind missions is PRECISELY what the community's been begging for, and got, and now pretends isn't going on when you make arguments like "theres just no reason to be in FW anymore".

FFS, neutral hauler alts have been a way of life for FW pilots for god knows how long. We're not out hauling ships and mods around in our flashy ships, and for damn good reason. We move our stuff around anyways, we re-base to prepare for ops, we have multiple stashes of ships, we make neutral runs to trade hubs, we use neutral corps for POS ownership, we use neutral alts for boosting, we use neutral alts for pretty much anything.

And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"

The reason that I was so opposed to this initially is that I HATED the idea of using my hauler alt every time I logged in, which was very much a possibility had they kept the system flip times.

Now that they've been stretched a bit, and it looks like taking systems from each other will be an actual *challenge* for once, the thought of having to move a few ships ( every once in a while when I've gotten my ass kicked) is really hard to ***** about and just seems petty in comparison. I reserve further opinion about the docking change till this goes live on Tranq and we can see how long it ACTUALLY takes for everyone to flip systems. If the mechanic sucks, and kills PvP entirely, I'll be the first to hammer CCP about it. But from now on this is about results, not hypotheses.

For the last two years I've heard nothing but "there's no WT's out" "there's no fleet up" "there's nothing to shoot" "The enemy is docked up again" or "we're all docked up again".

Now we have a mechanic that forces pilots to make a few extra jumps, and limits how often they can stay docked up, literally putting more pilots in space, more often, to do the same thing they already want to do. And people are complaining about that too. Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!!

I just think people are crazy if the thought of getting paid well to kill other players will somehow not motivate the casual PvP crowd to get out and pew more.

This crowd of "OMG EXTRA JUMPS" and "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS" just isn't the crowd that has made me proud to be a FW pilot all these years. It's the crowd that says "**** IT" and drops dreads against a hopelessly overpowered foe, without even needing a paycheck to do so, and without a single complaint about blobbing or numbers. Those guys did it for a Titan killmail and some PRIDE, and CCP is giving everyone even more solid reasons than bragging rights to actually undock from your systems and get out and fight. I dont know why or where everyone's fortitude just shriveled up all of a sudden.

Hans... with all due respect... this is how SOV is supposed to work in null-sec. And it doesn't work that way.

When faced with an equal or superior force and the imminent possibility of being locked out from their assets, people are not going to mount a defense. They are going to get as much of their stuff out ASAP because it's EASIER and less risky (especially in low-sec as there are no bubbles to lock freighters/jump freighters in stations).

And don't say that "people are not that skittish/lazy." How many fights have we gone into where we thought the fight was "going to be close" or that we were "surely going to die" and then the enemy turns tail after suffering one or two losses? How many times have we taunted the Amarr to come out only to be "blueballed" by them because they say "we can't get an FC" or "we are too tired" or "we don't have any ships"?


Incentivizing "causal" players to come out and engage for ISK good. Punishing "casual" players for not engaging only encourages them to further not engage and actually spend more time "safe-ing up assets."

And if this is what the FW community has been "asking for," why are so many people up in arms over this one "little" detail (the station lockout)?

It gets more difficult with fewer skillpoints and experience. That's the tragedy of it all.

Anyways, is there any way the devs can reduce the points per system by a factor of three instead of five? A factor of three would mean that players in every timezone would have a chance at defending a system before it is taken. Here's some examples. Assume there are three active timezones. W = attacking force dominates that timezone. L means it loses, X means a draw.

TZ1, TZ2, TZ3 = time to take, comments
W, W, W = 24 hours. You had your chance to defend and chose not to. You deserve your fate.
W,W,X = 32 hours. You put up a fight, but still, you were doomed from the start.
W,W,L = 40 hours. At least one TZ had the balls to put up a good fight.
W,L,W = 54 hours.
W,X,X = 72 hours
W, X, L = inf. System secured.
W,L, L = inf. System easily secured.

IMO, this is plenty of time for the losing side to have put up a defense, and allows for a more dynamic playstyle than the factor of five currently implemented on SISI.

Needing 40 hours to take a system the other side has chosen not to defend is a tragic waste of pvping time.

Wow! I can see that you've trained Caricature & Ridicule all the way up to level 5. An invaluable social skill when it comes to summarizing the debate for CCP, I'm sure. And I like how you've done this while deftly apologizing for your unqualified position of "I have always been against this proposal" that you brought to the fanfest thread. See, you used to be an "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS", but then you realized that it won't actually be a hardcore consequence, so now you're OK with it.

Well, I don't have C&R V, so it still seems odd to me that you'd characterize neutral alts as simultaneously a HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE and an infrequent hassle that only requires what 'everybody' has anyway. And I don't see how it counts as 'a lot of extra people in space' when I'm in a slicer and he's in a hurricane and both of us are 'OMG FOUR' jumps away from our other ships. Or when we're in Ardar, I've just damaged my modules and bled into armor a bit, and I have to go all the way to 'OMG' Hek before I can think about resuming the hunt. Have fun trying to get a fight from me during that time! At least we're both 'in space', right? Or when I lose a ship in Ardar, and rather than risk losing my pod to a smartbomb I log out and fly in neutral alt in a T1 frig -- well, at least the T1 frig with 0 SP in gunnery will be 'in space' for a while to make things more interesting and fun for you than if I'd not had these HARDCORE consequences.

All of that said, before you remembered that you had Caricature & Ridicule trained up, I think you'd intended to post to the effect that all kinds of good and desirable changes are coming along with station lockout, and that they should be kept in perspective when people are complaining about it. I agree with that. If I get LP enough for a slicer every 2 minors, I'll at least have have those all over the damned place anyway. Many of them in Gallente and Minmatar highsec.

You guys need to man up. You can't have a game system based entirely on carrots and no sticks. Otherwise, all the null sec kiddies would come our way because they can get paid for PVPing. There has to be some sort of pain involved for the participants, so it makes people want to win that much more and fight against losing with more tenacity.

If you guys want some sort of fight clubby PVP, go play counterstrike. This is an MMO, and its an MMO that's constantly being touted as being about as hardcore a gaming experience as you can get. Whining because you want to PVP all the time and not have to do anything else or deal with any consequences will get you zero sympathy from just about everyone. First rule of EVE is don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The first rule of FW will have to be don't put ships where you can't defend. Adapt or die.

CCP devs should man up. Put in 'ze cynojammers!

This. The one thing that would be most helpful if you count things like sov, and its left out?

Hans the station lockout idea sucks. You know it. You even said it. Just *keep* telling ccp that. Thats all we ask.

Don't be obtuse chatgris. My point is that you can't design one aspect of a multifaceted game and have it be the end all of that game, if your stated position is you want people to fill out all the other elements. As for being casual pvpers, nothing is keeping you from doing that after station lock outs come in. What you all are really bitching about, is that you won't be able to just sit in low sec and not have to worry about your sec status while still pvping where you want.

To that I say, tough ****. You can be a casual pvper no matter where you are, but you can't expect to bend the entire game that everyone else plays to your own personal preference for where you want to keep your ****. If this game is supposed to be as hardcore as is advertised, then all your actions have consequences. Going red has consequences, deal with it guys.

I have no illusions about what station lock outs will do. You may not be able to go pew your enemy that sits on the same station or even a jump away. But if it prevents all the faggotry that we've had to put up with for years now, I'm quite willing to deal with it. It's ******* stupid for an enemy to **** up, get trapped in your home system, but just say "hey guys, lets just dock up our **** in station and pod out, then carrier jump that **** back home." **** that. If your ass was stupid enough to not have an escape plan, you should have to deal with the losses and not have the game mechanics ******* hold your hand and let you keep your toys. FW is not fight club, it's supposed to be warfare. If you all don't think that's what it should be, there are plenty of other ways for you to find your pew.

The chances of having to have one giant home system for everyone is pretty low tbh. If they really are making it longer and harder to flip systems, you'll have plenty of times to get your friends/blues down to the system to kill some squiddies and keep your **** from being locked down. Saying we'll all be clustered together is alarmism of the first order.

All I have to say, is close the loopholes for neutrals. If you shoot FW people, then you shouldn't be able to dock in the stations either. You shouldn't get a free ride just cause you're not in FW if you want to live in the warzone. And put in cynojammers ffs.

My responsibility is to do everything in my power to express the community's concerns to CCP, thats all I've done for the last month, and its what I will be doing the rest of the year.